NICTD: $15 Million to move track in South Bend

[Tadman]

CHTT1, there's no yard downtown on the NS(NYC) but there is the CN(GTW) trackage rights/interlocking. That's another busy mainline that joins and then leaves NS for 100 yards. I'm actually surprised they haven't built a flyover to separate those railroads. They run parallel for a few miles, then merge into one double-track main for 100 yards, before splitting back up and heading for Valpo and LaPorte, respectively. That may be why they don't want Amtrak stopping downtown. It's awful close to the approach signals for the merge.

[CHTT1]

Thanks for the clarification, Tadman. I knew there was some reason for the NS rejection of the downtown plan. Didn't the NYC and GTW once share a Union Station in South Bend? Was the station at the crossover area? Or some distance away? I remember doing a South Shore east, GTW west trip during the pre-Amtrak era and was very impressed with South Bend Union Station. Does the building still exist?

[Tadman]

The building does still exist as a banquet hall type of place. I suppose this is the best one can hope for when many large stations are in total disrepair or demolished. On one hand, Amtrak cannot support the station when 4 (6 at best) trains come thru each day. The Bendix station is, size-wise, perfect for 4/day. Were one to get aggressive and route South Shore trains to SBUS, you're looking at maybe 10-12 trains/day, still barely enough to support such a grandiose structure.

The station is in the middle of the GTW/NS shared ROW, but is slightly east of the actual shared trackage. I still don't understand why, when the real estate is available, they don't just cross the two mains at one interlocking. If you look at the map linked below, you can see that there is plenty of width to the ROW for 6+ tracks (probably there at one time) and empty fields on either side.

For growing up in SB, you'd figure I would know a lot more about the west side, but I don't. They west side heyday ended when manufacturing left SB, and by the time I was old enough to get out and around, most of the rail-served manufacturing was gone.

BTW, I notice your handle stands for one of my favorite little-known roads, CHTT. I worked in the heights for a few years and loved chasing trains through town on lunch. I worked at an office housed in a leased outbuilding of hte former Thrall Car plant 2, so there was always something going on just to the north on EJE or UP.



http://maps.google.com/maps?q=south+ben ... a&t=h&z=18

[CHTT1]

I grew up in the Heights and actually worked for the CHTT as a yard clerk in the late 60's. I also worked summers as a clerk for the J, where my Dad was the freight agent. Also such positions (and the station buildings themselves) are long gone.

[justalurker66]

Thanks for the clarification, Tadman. I knew there was some reason for the NS rejection of the downtown plan. Didn't the NYC and GTW once share a Union Station in South Bend? Was the station at the crossover area? Or some distance away? I remember doing a South Shore east, GTW west trip during the pre-Amtrak era and was very impressed with South Bend Union Station. Does the building still exist?

GTW once crossed NYC at a diamond and ran west down what is now Western Ave across the river then running between Sunnymeade and Monroe before joining the current alignment. One can see some of the path on the map Tadman linked.

See http://www.monon.monon.org/sobend/unionstation.html toward the bottom in a section titled "Grand Trunk Western Depot":
Until the line was elevated, the GTW once ran down Western Avenue (then Division Avenue) west of Michigan Street. Western Avenue terminated at Michigan.

[MattW]

I'm surprised someone (NICTD? Amtrak?) Isn't pushing for a better connection to Amtrak. As it stands now, people living between Chicago and South Shore don't have the option of a train-transfer heading eastbound. Even if it's just a flag stop just before the NICTD line branches off to the airport using this planned new route to the airport.

[justalurker66]

Considering the number of trains involved (two eastbound Amtraks) cabs can be used for anyone wanting to make the connection. If one does not mind a transfer the local bus service also connects the stations.

[Tadman]

Matt, I'm a big advocate of improving transfer options between public transit. Because most public transit is based on a legacy system (IE Milwaukee Road, Chicago Surface Lines, Metropolitan Elevated) the connections are poor on purpose. C&NW once competed with the L for passengers from places like Evanston and Maywood. Now that RTA is responsible for bus, L, and commuter, they have their hands full trying to connect the system, and it doesn't help that each is its own fiefdom... God help the person that wants to transfer in from intercity passenger train let alone commuter train to L.

That said, the possibility of NICTD -> Amtrak transfer is limited. There are only two Amtrak/day to SOB, and only 4-ish NICTD trains to SBN. Further, the SOB Amtrak station is 1 mile east of the Grandview Lead, where NICTD trains head north to their terminal at SBN airport. You'd have to construct a new ADA-compliant Amtrak/NICTD transfer at a cost of millions, which I don't think anybody wants to spend. I really like they way you think, but I think this is a case of low return.

That said, if the railroads and city wanted to boost transfer count and ridership on both systems to South Bend, they'd find the money to send Amtrak and South Shore to downtown's bus terminal. I'm not sure if it makes sense financially, but South Bend is a huge tourist destination on fall weekends with ND home games and they also have a transient student body population of about 10,000 at ND.

[Arborwayfan]

A few years ago a friend was living in South Bend and making frequent trips back to Champaign-Urbana for meetings. I made him a personalized schedule of South Shore, Metra, and Amtrak trains that let him go both ways via Homewood and some South Shore-Metra station. He saved an hour or two compared to going to Union Station, crossing the Loop, and riding out on South Shore or vice versa. Not hard to figure out if your a timetable-obsessed foamer, but tough for ordinary people. Why not a website shared by the agencies to do this, a kind of overall route finder? Champaign-South Bend on Amtrak is unrealistic (or at least it was; I haven't checked since the new Saluki), but if you're willing to transfer twice on the south side (a big if, maybe), it's pretty reasonable. Why not at least "If you want U of Chicago or Science and Industry or the Museum Campus or the Art Institute, change to Metra at Homewood" on the Carbondale Service timetable? Sure, a Homewood ticket is a little cheaper, but if it made travel look easier it would increase riders and revenue overall.

[Tadman]

You said it. Two transfers is easy when it's cross-platform (or at Homewood, cross-platformS). But we make it hard. If the FTA funds most mass-transit, why don't they mandate use of a national train timetable system?

[justalurker66]

If the FTA funds most mass-transit, why don't they mandate use of a national train timetable system?

It would get cumbersome.

A minimal level would be to advertise connecting services ... in the MED schedule one would place Amtrak logos by the stations Amtrak serves and South Shore logos by the stations NICTD serves. (The "METRA/IC Line" is noted in the Amtrak schedule for Homewood.) One would have to explain what services were offered ... Amtrak DOES NOT carry passengers between Homewood and Union Station unless they are connecting to other Amtrak trains. NICTD DOES NOT carry passengers between stations on the MED. Appropriate notes in the timetables would need to be placed along with the "advertisements" for the connecting services. Amtrak's schedules are easier to modify since the local services (Metra, CTA and St Louis Metrolink are noted in the Illinois schedule) don't have restrictions that need to be explained.

How many levels of connections would you limit this to? A direct connection between two lines? A three way such as the South Bend to Champaign connection noted in this thread? More levels? A simple note could be added to the NICTD schedules stating "Amtrak service to Champaign-Urbana and Carbondale, IL, Memphis, TN, and New Orleans, LA, among other stops between Chicago and New Orleans is available via a station at Homewood on the Metra Electric Line. Connections between South Shore and Metra trains can be made at 57th St (Hyde Park), Museum Campus / 11th St, Van Buren St or Millenium Station. Connections are not guaranteed and a separate fare applies for each transportation provider."

Probably the biggest issue with having a "national timetable" would be notes like this - and the implied guarantee on the connections. If the official schedule said one could travel from Champaign-Urbana to South Bend via Homewood and Hyde Park passengers would be very disappointed when those advertised connections failed. And the government could be held responsible. When any of the agencies involved changed their schedules the national timetable would need to be updated - reducing flexibility for the agencies.

Oddly enough, I believe that a "national timetable" is a perfect job for the private sector - with the private sector taking the responsibility for explaining the connections and keeping track of the various schedule changes. Google Transit can do it better than the government. I'd rather have the FRA spend our money on keeping trains from running into each other and keeping their eyes on railroads than collating schedules. I'd limit any "connecting train" information published in timetables to direct connections. NICTD to Metra, Amtrak to Metra. With just enough information to help people find the next agency without creating train connections that cannot be guaranteed.

One might as well publish the flight schedules at the federally supported South Bend Airport in the NICTD timetable. And the connecting Metra timetable. And the connecting Amtrak timetable. Just in case someone wants to take a train from New Orleans to fly out of South Bend.

[ExCon90]

I think the easiest way to deal with this would be for each operator to list the others' websites in the timetable and let the passenger put his trip together from there. Provided all operators keep their websites updated (which let's hope they do anyway), the passenger should always have access to the latest schedule information.

[dinwitty]

Fort Wayne is without direct passenger service and been that for many years since Pennsy dissappeared, and the city is the 2nd largest in the state, the county is the largest in the state.
Anyone wanting to train ride must drive north.

Bendix stop was always a South Shore stop, was a shack before the building was built with Amtrak inside too when they moved out of downtown.
I don't know why Amtrak cant go back to the downtown depot, its still perfect.

[justalurker66]

Fort Wayne is without direct passenger service and been that for many years since Pennsy dissappeared, and the city is the 2nd largest in the state, the county is the largest in the state. Anyone wanting to train ride must drive north.

If the HSR crowd gets their way the people of the South Bend-Mishawaka-Elkhart metropolitan area (with about equal population) will be asked to drive south to catch a train. It is a shame that a route can not serve both metro areas, but new railroad alignments are much harder to get than new road alignments (and they are not easy).

Then again Indy probably would not have service if it were not for the shops. Population is not always served. Fortunately South Bend has the South Shore and people who believe in it ... and it also has decent roads if Amtrak is ever taken away.

[ravenswood]

Fort Wayne is without direct passenger service and been that for many years since Pennsy dissappeared, and the city is the 2nd largest in the state, the county is the largest in the state. Anyone wanting to train ride must drive north.

If the HSR crowd gets their way the people of the South Bend-Mishawaka-Elkhart metropolitan area (with about equal population) will be asked to drive south to catch a train. It is a shame that a route can not serve both metro areas, but new railroad alignments are much harder to get than new road alignments (and they are not easy).

Then again Indy probably would not have service if it were not for the shops. Population is not always served. Fortunately South Bend has the South Shore and people who believe in it ... and it also has decent roads if Amtrak is ever taken away.

As much as I would like to see the current route through South Bend maintained, I feel I should point out that the current South Bend station is only about 14 miles South of the Niles, MI stop that hopefully will become a high speed rail stop. Granted the current MHSR map does not have a <110 mph train out of Niles but how much savings could be made between Chicago and South Bend that upgrades to 110 mph would not solve. A large part of the metro area has as easy access to Niles as the current station and Chicago would probably be the popular destination. So it is not the greatest lose and as you say, there is always the South Shore too. On the other hand, if residents want to go to the east (and not end up in Detroit), they would in fact need to drive south.