Gary Airport Railroad Modification Thread

[Jenner]

I don't think we have a thread for this, but it is relevant to this forum. I am interested in seeing how the Gary Airport expansion plays out. I just saw these two articles:
http://posttrib.suntimes.com/news/91208 ... lroad.html
http://www.nwitimes.com/business/local/ ... a2594.html

I've only seen the Gary Airport Master plan, and it refers to the NS tracks as being the (former?) "sugar line". The articles above refer to the NS Gary Line, of which I presume is the same as the "sugar line". These tracks are north of the CSX tracks, and runs parallel to the CSX tracks. The CSX Gary Line is the abandoned set of tracks with overgrowth. I guess the airport wants to clear a lot of space north of the airport.

I know that the EJ&E will have a massive loop to go around the new runway extension. This is pictured in the master plan. What would be nice is a picture showing all the new track alignments.

[virtualchuck]

Here’s my question. Why does the line have to go AROUND the runway? They build islands for airports, they run highways under runways, why can’t they put a 25’ ROW under the approach to this new runway? I’ve checked Google Maps, there is MORE than enough space to get that line below grade by the time it hits the runway on both sides.

Chuck

[Tadman]

Literally the million dollar question: who is flying in/out of there that needs bigger runways? I'm all for making Gary into a major airport, but you gotta have traffic.

[justalurker66]

Jenner,

The airport master plan is the best information I've seen as to the relocation of the rail lines, including the ones north east of the airport. How this affects the midwest regional high speed rail plans to use the abandoned CSX corridor is a good question. BTW: There is a CSX line north of the railroad that is not abandoned that will have to be modified as part of the EJ&E (now CN) realignment.

That airport master plan also notes the relocation of the NICTD South Shore station from Clark Rd. Before I saw the plan I heard descriptions of relocating the NICTD line and thought they were proposing something stupid - but the master plan shows a simple station relocation, creating a multi-modal transportation hub at the southeast corner of the airport.

Chuck,

Most of the railroad relocation is to get the railroad further away from the end of the runway. A trenched in railroad would not meet the FAA's standards. A rail tunnel might be workable but would be far more expensive than staying above ground (especially so close to Lake Michigan). The line would have to go far below grade to provide clearance for trains and have a safe runway. The alternative would be to raise the level of the entire airport. Moving the rail lines is a lot cheaper.

Tad,

I agree that the "Gary/Chicago Airport" does not have a lot of traffic. No scheduled airlines but there is private and charter aircraft. While I don't believe Gary can ever take the place of a third major Chicago airport it may be able to help take the pressure off of the other two (or three) by serving private and charter aircraft. There is also the attitude of "if you build it, they will come". (That didn't work for Mid America Airport outside of St Louis, but I digress.) If they don't build it, "they" certainly won't come.

Personally I'd rather see the money spent on high speed rail or expansion of the NICTD lines - but the FAA doesn't often pay for trains.

[Jenner]

The land area is rather swampy, and may be prone to flooding during heavy rains, especially for any underpasses. Also, the railroad would probably have to get special environmental permission to even perform such an underpass. The airport had to go through several hoops in order to try to extend their runway. Apparently, the EPA mandated that the wetlands be preserved, or find a comparable location for transplant and preservation. Thus the airport had to buy new properties (off site) in order to "preserve" the dunes and swails.

I know that the airport had also planned to extend their cross-wind runway, but that may no longer be on the drawing board. I think the airport is trying to clear as much immediate land as possible in order to dedicate it towards airport operations and expansion. Having a railroad cut down the middle of airport land doesn't jive with their expansion plans or future vision.

In terms of the airport expansion, the airport currently serves some business jets, charters, user-owned private planes, and Boeing has its business jet station at GYY. The airport is hoping that it could become the next 3rd airport for the region. The lengthening of the runway is twofold:
1. To attract other air business to use Gary, such as airlines and cargo planes. Right now the airport is limited in terms of the number of planes that it can handle, and in terms of cargo, the current runway is too short to support maximum cargo weights for aircraft.
2. The current runway thresholds aren't enough clearance for aircraft. If the runway is not lengthened, the FAA will impose new thresholds which will shrink the operational size of the runway. By moving the railroad, the threshold issue should go away.

[virtualchuck]

Okay so here is my other question. I have heard that the GYY runway is actually longer than midway? Something about the end of runway crush barriers come into play though.

Here's the main irony... We (I live not far from the airport and actually have worked there) are allowing the main road (Cline Ave.) that runs between Chicago and GYY to be essentially be abandoned do to funding issues in replacing a deficient bridge, so any discussion about expanding the airport to become Chicago's third airport or to handle cargo to free up space at O'Hare is totally moot.

Chuck

[justalurker66]

Here's the main irony... We (I live not far from the airport and actually have worked there) are allowing the main road (Cline Ave.) that runs between Chicago and GYY to be essentially be abandoned do to funding issues in replacing a deficient bridge, so any discussion about expanding the airport to become Chicago's third airport or to handle cargo to free up space at O'Hare is totally moot.

Even if the bridge isn't there the path will be. It will just involve surface streets. Besides, the missing bridge is not the only route to the airport. The toll rd and 912 to the south remain as feeders to the area. US 12/20 are not far away. Somehow people get to Midway. They will get to Gary (if the right planes ever land there). The biggest issue with Gary Airport is it's distance from Chicago, not the missing bridge.

[Tadman]

The I-90 toll road and South Shore have plenty of capacity to get people in to GYY. After all, 912 branches off the toll road just south of Wolf Lake - it's not a totally separate route in from downtown Chicago.

[virtualchuck]

Here's the main irony... We (I live not far from the airport and actually have worked there) are allowing the main road (Cline Ave.) that runs between Chicago and GYY to be essentially be abandoned do to funding issues in replacing a deficient bridge, so any discussion about expanding the airport to become Chicago's third airport or to handle cargo to free up space at O'Hare is totally moot.

Even if the bridge isn't there the path will be. It will just involve surface streets. Besides, the missing bridge is not the only route to the airport. The toll rd and 912 to the south remain as feeders to the area. US 12/20 are not far away. Somehow people get to Midway. They will get to Gary (if the right planes ever land there). The biggest issue with Gary Airport is it's distance from Chicago, not the missing bridge.

Gary also has a beautiful baseball stadium with a great team that not many people go to, do you know why??? No one wants to drive though Gary to get there.

This master plan needs to add two things to the mix for it to actually work

1) A direct ramp to the airport from a major highway. This would be similar to I-90 and O’ Hare. They did something similar for Majestic Star and Cline Ave., as no one wants to drive through Gary to go anywhere.
2) They need to figure out how to work with the South Shore to drop people off literally right at the front door.

If I was going to even consider flying out of GYY, I wouldn’t make someone drive through Gary to drop me off. If I was driving, I would much rather leave my car at East Chicago or Hammond and get dropped off by train.

That’s the only way this project has a chance for passenger service. If it’s going to be Cargo, it still needs a major interchange and a revamp of the surface roads around GYY to handle the traffic.

If you think I’m being melodramatic, that’s fine, I’ve lived in “the region” for 30 years, and that’s all I ever hear about Gary.

Chuck

[justalurker66]

This master plan needs to add two things to the mix for it to actually work

1) A direct ramp to the airport from a major highway. This would be similar to I-90 and O’ Hare. They did something similar for Majestic Star and Cline Ave., as no one wants to drive through Gary to go anywhere.

Cline Ave functions well for that. They just need to build a new terminal or provide transportation from parking on the west side of the airport,

2) They need to figure out how to work with the South Shore to drop people off literally right at the front door.

The South Shore has a greater purpose, getting people to jobs in Chicago so they can bring their paychecks home to Indiana. Anything done for the airport needs to be done in the least disruptive manner possible. The master plan has a nice transportation center planned ... without moving the South Shore off of the current alignment, That will do.

If I was going to even consider flying out of GYY, I wouldn’t make someone drive through Gary to drop me off. If I was driving, I would much rather leave my car at East Chicago or Hammond and get dropped off by train.

The only part I don't like about going through Gary is the potholes - but US12/US20 is scheduled for repaving (if it hasn't started) so that should be fixed.

If you think I’m being melodramatic, that’s fine, I’ve lived in “the region” for 30 years, and that’s all I ever hear about Gary.

Yes, Gary was once the "murder capital" of the US with more murders per capita than any other city. But you shouldn't believe everything you hear. I am in town often because the South Shore is there - I don't feel threatened. There are some areas of town I would stay out of, but they are not on the well beaten path through town that serves the airport.

The relocation of the CN, CSX and NS lines in order to expand the runway is disruptive to those rail services, but not insurmountable. What they do with the airport after the tracks are relocated is beyond the scope of a railroad forum.

[ryanch]

Gary also has a beautiful baseball stadium with a great team that not many people go to, do you know why??? No one wants to drive though Gary to get there.

...

If you think I’m being melodramatic, that’s fine, I’ve lived in “the region” for 30 years, and that’s all I ever hear about Gary.

Chuck

Melodramatic would be one word for it. Cavalier about facts would be another. I can think of a third that would apply to many residents of "the region" who talk about Gary without bothering to confirm what they say is true, but not knowing you, I'll give the benefit of the doubt. At any rate, the Railcats draw more than 3,000/game, which is pretty good for a team that isn't even an MLB affiliate. Teams like this die every year, but the railcats are in their second decade. A fair number of people ride the South Shore to see the team.

On a separate note, my business has brought Chicagoans to Gary as tourists! To paddle the lagoons of the Miller area. So I'm pretty well placed to counter mindless Gary bashing. There are real, deep-rooted problems in Gary. There's no reason to invent falsehoods to exaggerate the effect.

I'm also surprised no one has mentioned that the Gary Airport has had regular commercial service at various times in the last decade. The vaunted Hooters Air ran flights, as did another airline whose name I forget (but how could you forget Hooters Air). What the airport needs is critical mass. I'm not convinced the South Shore would ever be a big part of that, but it's certainly conceivable that it could become a reasonable-sized supplement to OHare, Midway and Amtrak. One way to put it in perspective - more than a decade after Mayor Daley entered into an alliance with Gary to try to block a new south suburban airport, Gary still has a functioning airport, and Peotone doesn't.

[Tadman]

Yeah I would also contest a number of Chuck's assertions.

1. The Railcats are bereft of attendees
I drive past the park often, and they're not the Cubs, but they're reasonably well attended. I'm even wearing my Railcats sweater today, believe it or not.

2. The Railcats don't have direct highway access.
Really? It's like 2 blocks from the exit, Stevie Wonder could drive a car from the tollway to the ballpark.

3. The Gary Airport needs direct highway access.
Again, it's less than a mile from the 912 interchange on US12.

4. The Gary Airport needs South Shore to drop passengers directly to the doorstep.
Amtrak's Hiawatha has 155,000 boardings/year at MKE Airport and is tangential to the back of the field. A shuttlebus picks up riders and carts them five minutes away to the terminal. That said, the Clark station may need a bit of fixer-up and security to be attractive. Right now it's a 1920's interurban flag stop in a decrepit town.

Really, the smartest thing they could do is change the airport name to "Chicago / Northwest Indiana Airport" kind of like "Cincinatti / Northern Kentucky Airport" is named. Then, change the train station's name to "Chicago/NWI Airport".

[justalurker66]

Really, the smartest thing they could do is change the airport name to "Chicago / Northwest Indiana Airport" kind of like "Cincinatti / Northern Kentucky Airport" is named. Then, change the train station's name to "Chicago/NWI Airport".

The current airport name is "Gary / Chicago International Airport" with the NICTD stop signed "Gary/Chicago Airport at Clark Rd". If they want it to be Chicago's third airport they have the right name.

A few years ago "South Bend Regional Airport" decided to use a more regional name ... one admittedly harder to figure out geographically than "Northwest Indiana". They called it the "Michiana Regional Airport" - and lost passengers. People know where South Bend is and if they don't they can find it on a map. Find Michiana on a map and you don't find an airport. Where is "Northwest Indiana"? Chesterton? Michigan City? Valparaiso? In the Hoosier National Forest 70 miles from Louisville? Gary can be found on a map ... not far from Chicago, the name works.

As far as the South Shore ... a new station just east of Cline Ave with airport shuttles to the terminal is what is planned. I suggest they keep parking limited or paid at airport rates, otherwise it would become another commuter stop like East Chicago - which isn't that far down the rail.

[Jenner]

I guess the only document that I have the "Record of Decision" document which shows the proposed modification to the EJ&E railroad. I don't happen to have the 2001 Master plan document. I didn't see any mention of moving the NS or CSX rails, so I'm curious as to those developments. Are the EJ&E city tracks still going to be used?

--Edited "Record of Decision"

[justalurker66]

I guess the only document that I have the "Right of Decision" document which shows the proposed modification to the EJ&E railroad. I don't happen to have the 2001 Master plan document. I didn't see any mention of moving the NS or CSX rails, so I'm curious as to those developments. Are the EJ&E city tracks still going to be used?

The FAA "Record of Decision" from 2005? Page 8 of that 112 page document has a black and white drawing of almost everything (including the city track connections to the new alignment). I saw a color version of that drawing somewhere but not at the resolution seen in the ROD. I can't remember where I read about the affects on the CSX and NS mainlines ... I believe it was because of changes in the way the EJ&E left the airport property needing to change how they interact with the CSX and NS main lines. (It has been almost two years since I last looked at the project and documents were scarce then.) The CSX main line is the northern border of the airport, with the new CN EJ&E alignment running just south of it.