China offering to build CA HSR

[kaitoku]

They will even provide the financing- I guess they own enough general U.S. debt anyway, this way they can directly invest in and have control over something that will benefit their companies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/busin ... 8rail.html

[Mr.T]

I have a feeling this would really rile up opponents of HSR. If someone opposes rail for ideological reasons, then putting communist China into the project would only make the opposition louder.

[jtr1962]

I hate to say it but I honestly feel California should take the Chinese up on their offer. We have a bad habit in this country of building projects late and over budget. Nothing is sure to raise the ire of the public more than if this happens. Put someone in charge of building the line who has a proven track record of getting the job done. Let some American workers watch how they do it so maybe they can build HSR elsewhere. And when the Chinese are done in CA, send them to NYC to build a couple of much needed subway lines.

Don't take this post as a swipe at American workers, either. I'm sure American workers can eventually get as good or better than the Chinese. The problem is in this country we just don't build much infrastructure ( and no HSR so far ), so our workers are simply out of practice. The Chinese on the other hand are building thousands of kilometers of HSR, plus tons of other infrastructure. When you build that much of something, you learn all the shortcuts. Look at some videos of American construction workers back in the 1930s, for example. Amazing how fast and well they were able to build things. They did so because they had a lot of practice with all the infrastructure which had been build in the previous 30 years, starting with the NYC subway and many Manhattan skyscrapers. The Chinese are in this mindset right now.

[kaitoku]

Hey, if California thinks the Chinese State Railways can build this thing on time and on budget, why not give them the chance? Of course the Chinese will have to deal wth the labor unions, "buy American" laws, rent-seeking contractors/subcontractors, sharing track with Metrolink and Caltrain, tea baggers, libertarians, a free but often skeptical and usually misinformed media, and obstructionist NIMBYs- things that either don't exist or can be suppressed back home. No wonder JR Central is steering clear of this project and is instead concentrating on Desert Xpress.

[BiZzAr0]

No wonder JR Central is steering clear of this project and is instead concentrating on Desert Xpress.

They're concentrating on the Florida HSR the most and I doubt they're not interested in California. I haven't even heard of them being interested in the Desert Xpress.

[goodnightjohnwayne]

Let China build the California HSR network. Actually, I'd be more than willing to let the Chinese finance it, built it and supply the rolling stock and man the trains. For all I care, they could post the timetables in Chinese and make all of the station announcements in Mandarin dialect. I wouldn't even care if the personnel were all Chinese nationals, working at Chinese wage scales to Chinese work rules. Of course, if the Chinese wish to pay the upfront costs of a $100 billion system and pay the annual subsidies, which might be in the billions by the time the system is complete, I'd let them. Yes indeed, why should the federal taxpayers have to the delusional CHSR system? Let China pay for it!

Of course, we're really talking about American money going to pay for Chinese jobs. At the moment, China must have a tremendously overbuilt rolling stock industry and there is a desperate need to find export markets. Of course, China is in competition with every other country that has too much passenger railroad rolling stock capacity, such as Spain, France, Germany, Japan, South Korea.....the list goes on and on. Basically, there are too many passenger rolling stock producers worldwide, and contrary to the uninformed belief, this is not a growth industry on a global level. Actually, HSR isn't very "high tech" in a meaningful sense either.

[jtr1962]

Technical Comparison of the Different Railway Vehicles Being Considered For Use

Interesting technical data includes TE and resistance curves for some of the trainsets.

[george matthews]

Japanese designers and constructors have experience of earthquake precautions. I believe no-one has died in an earthquake while riding a Shinkansen train. For this reason alone they would be the best choice for California.

[goodnightjohnwayne]

Japanese designers and constructors have experience of earthquake precautions. I believe no-one has died in an earthquake while riding a Shinkansen train. For this reason alone they would be the best choice for California.

Just how many railroad passenger, earthquake related fatalities do you think there have been in the last half century in California? Zero? Any potential contractor, of any nationality, can easily deal with the earthquake safety issues. The issue you've raised is a non-issue.

[george matthews]

Just how many railroad passenger, earthquake related fatalities do you think there have been in the last half century in California? Zero? Any potential contractor, of any nationality, can easily deal with the earthquake safety issues. The issue you've raised is a non-issue.

France is not an earthquake area. Japan is. You would want designers of a High Speed Rail system to be aware of the need for earthquake suitable equipment at every level. The Japanese are the people to do that, not any Europeans (except Italians, but their rail expertise is not of the best). China does not, it seems to me, have original designs but copies of others' work.

[goodnightjohnwayne]

Just how many railroad passenger, earthquake related fatalities do you think there have been in the last half century in California? Zero? Any potential contractor, of any nationality, can easily deal with the earthquake safety issues. The issue you've raised is a non-issue.

France is not an earthquake area. Japan is. You would want designers of a High Speed Rail system to be aware of the need for earthquake suitable equipment at every level. The Japanese are the people to do that, not any Europeans (except Italians, but their rail expertise is not of the best). China does not, it seems to me, have original designs but copies of others' work.

France is just as much "an earthquake area" as any other country. Do you have some sort of personal knowledge that would affirm your mistaken belief that France has suddenly become totally geologically inactive? Here's a link to the RéNaSS:

http://renass.u-strasbg.fr/

Second of all, the seismic issues of construction can be dealt with by any contractor, and no doubt will be part of the final requirement and stipulated in any contract.

Third, Italy does have extensive railways and they seem no more vulnerable to earthquake damage than Japan's in any meaningful sense. Again, I'm not aware of any fatalities among railway passengers due to earthquakes in recent history.

Finally, the technology involved in HSR is not exactly cutting edge. We're talking about a refinement of 19th century railway technology here. I'm sure the Chinese have licensed a great deal of foreign HSR technology, if only to reduce costs and save time, but I'm sure that a great deal more is no longer protected by patents in any jurisdiction.

[george matthews]

France is just as much "an earthquake area" as any other country.

What nonsense. I live next door. Do you think I would not have noticed if there were earthquakes there? In Britain it is a major news story if an earthquake rattles some roof tiles. 2.5 is considered a major story. The same is true of France. That means that the kind of earthquake precautions built in to the Shinkansen network, and which would be needed in California, are not needed on the TGV network.

[goodnightjohnwayne]

France is just as much "an earthquake area" as any other country.

What nonsense. I live next door. Do you think I would not have noticed if there were earthquakes there? In Britain it is a major news story if an earthquake rattles some roof tiles. 2.5 is considered a major story. The same is true of France. That means that the kind of earthquake precautions built in to the Shinkansen network, and which would be needed in California, are not needed on the TGV network.

From the middle ages onward, the church recorded earthquake damage to various cathedrals in Britain and most recently, there was the 5.2 magnitude Lincolnshire earthquake and 4.3 magnitude 2007 Kent earthquake. I guess that even merry old England isn't as geologically inactive as you would like to believe. You might also be surprised that there was a very destructive 6.2 to 6.5 magnitude earthquake in the middle of Europe in 1356, centered somewhere near Basel, Switzerland, causing widespread destruction in what is now modern France.

The San Andreas Fault has gained a level of popular awareness due to the 1906 San Francisco Earthquake, but most Americans fail to realize that the most severe series of earthquakes in American history occurred in the Mississippi River valley at the beginning of the 19th century. Personally, I would worry far less about the "Big One" on the San Andreas Fault than other less expected locations. Do I need to remind anyone about Haiti, Chili or the latest Baja California quake - which incidentally occurred on the Laguna Salada Fault.

Overall, the seismic issue you've raised is of secondary importance and will be dealt with as a matter of course.

[David Benton]

come to the shaky isles . Anything less than 6 is ho hum . i suspect Japan is the same .

[george matthews]

come to the shaky isles . Anything less than 6 is ho hum . i suspect Japan is the same .

Italy, Greece and former Yugoslavia have serious earthquakes. I would hope rail systems there are adapted with safety devices, as in Japan. Nowhere else in Europe is at risk.

But clearly, the design of systems in California should be fully adapted.