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  • Discussion of Electro-Motive locomotive products and technology, past and present. Official web site can be found here: http://www.emdiesels.com/.
Discussion of Electro-Motive locomotive products and technology, past and present. Official web site can be found here: http://www.emdiesels.com/.

Moderator: GOLDEN-ARM

 #501081  by mbta1051dan
 
I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the engine-driven cooling fan on EMDs. They can become quite loud at times, especially on SD40-2s, where the sound is a single noted whine, about the same pitch as the engine on a 16 cyl, and having eight or nine blades. The newer 710 fans have a low and high pitch whine, seperated by two octaves, and are not the same pitches as the engine. Rather, they are a fifth up from the engine pitch. I were told that newer EMDs have the "Q" type cooling fan, with five unevenly spaced blades, but it doesn't sound like this. I've been in the engineroom of an F40 (idling, of course) but I can't find the fan. Does anyone know where it is, or have a picture of one in relation to the prime mover?

-Dan

 #501499  by GOLDEN-ARM
 
The fans in the F40 are in the same location they would be in, on a Geep 40. Directly above the radiators. You can't see them, because they are a sealed enclosure, so all the air they pull though them, enters only through the shutters, and passes directly through the radiators. They were above the air compressor, and there are squared oval access hatches, with little metal retaining clips, that allow you to examine the underside of the radiators, for leaks, etc. If the unit has DB's there is another fan centered above the diesel, and it too will be shrouded to ensure all air pulls through the grids. The fans can actually operate at different speeds, and independent of each other, as cooling needs change. The shutters also play part in this, closing until the loco is hot enough to need actual forced air cooling. From the cab, the DB's are the easiest to hear, and understand, as they step their way up and down, through the differing speeds in and out of extended range. The newer cooling fans run the same way, and some of them do make a different kind of "howling" sound, as opposed the the older (and cooler sounding) whine that had a siren like quality to them.
BTW, Dan, the cooling fans on EMD's, that you mentioned, are like all EMD's, except for the early "F" series, and the SW/NW/SC/MP series switchers. They have electrically driven fans. Lot's of Alcos, GE's and Baldwins had engine driven fans, either from a driveshaft/drivebelt arrangement, or through a gearbox that directed horizontal rotation to vertical rotation to directly drive the fan. EMD has always utilized the electrical cooling fans, once it built locos other than those mentioned above. Hope this helped...... :wink:
Last edited by GOLDEN-ARM on Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

 #503196  by mbta1051dan
 
GOLDEN-ARM wrote:Directly above the radiators.
You don't mean the 2 or 3 electrically driven visible roof mounted fans, do you? These run at variable speeds, and can hardly be heard, whereas the fan I'm talking about varies directly with engine speed, when you have it in notch 8 and it starts "surging", the fan speed surges with it. So All I can guess is that it is engine driven. On the screamers, the fans tend to cycle on and off.

-Dan

 #503279  by GOLDEN-ARM
 
Sorry, but you're wrong, Dan. Your question has been answered. There are no engine driven fans on the locos you are questioning. NONE.
Last edited by GOLDEN-ARM on Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
 #503437  by conrail_engineer
 
mbta1051dan wrote:I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the engine-driven cooling fan on EMDs. They can become quite loud at times, especially on SD40-2s, where the sound is a single noted whine, about the same pitch as the engine on a 16 cyl, and having eight or nine blades. The newer 710 fans have a low and high pitch whine, seperated by two octaves, and are not the same pitches as the engine. Rather, they are a fifth up from the engine pitch. I were told that newer EMDs have the "Q" type cooling fan, with five unevenly spaced blades, but it doesn't sound like this. I've been in the engineroom of an F40 (idling, of course) but I can't find the fan. Does anyone know where it is, or have a picture of one in relation to the prime mover?

-Dan
Enough has been said about this. The prewar FTs had mechanically-driven fans; everything since has had electrically-driven and -controlled cooling fans.

Except for the traction-motor cooling system; and I don't even know where it enters into the engine-sound spectrum.

Now. The whine that is steady at varying speeds, is the dynamic brake system. On newer units the fan will kick on on moderate/heavy applications, and stay on until reduced to light/no application..

Powered sounds/whines will vary with throttle positions. Never, never heard the cooling-system fan kick on or off from the cab...with window open, which is how I prefer to run.

I think you're referring to the dynamic-brake cooling grid, and the fan that comes on with applications on most EMD units.
 #503468  by GOLDEN-ARM
 
conrail_engineer wrote:
Except for the traction-motor cooling system; and I don't even know where it enters into the engine-sound spectrum.
And that is actually a "blower", being a squirrel cage type cooling blower, driven by an electric motor (in most cases) with all of the air being produced in it, blown out through the traction motors. The howl of the motors, and the squeeking of the wheels and springs easily overpowers even the loudest, out of balance TM blower. I'm with you, about the DB, as the sound comes both through the fan, and through the grids, as there is a direct "line of sight" through the grids, straight into the bottom of the fan blades. :wink: As far as the F40 DB fan (if so equipped) just like most modern diesels, from EMD, there is a large metal sheet that covers the botom of the fan motor, and cabling, to deflect heat away from it, produced by the exhaust manifold(s). Some units have a completely sealed system, others can be viewed, from the extreme ends of the prime mover, or from directly under the grids. As they are powered by the TM's, in DB, the speed will vary depending on the amount of amperage being produced, and will also vary depending on the type of brake, either standard, or extended range types. Sometimes, the howl can be heard from the DB fan, in full DB, at low speed, that comes through a completely closed cab. As mentioned, leaving the windows open makes this a much more enjoyable experience.......

 #503670  by mbta1051dan
 
ok so those roof fans are the loudest, and they vary with throttle notch. I'm guessing, since it's an induction motor, that the more power they're given by the main gen, the faster they'll spin. Does anyone know what the highest speed they'll spin in notch 8 is?

-Dan

 #503680  by conrail_engineer
 
You aren't listening.

The roof mounted fans are NOT mechanically connected to the prime mover, the diesel engine. They turn on and off as needed, based on water temperature.

The "screamer" blower is the dynamic-brake grid cooling fan; and how loud it is, how fast it turns depends on the type and age of the locomotive - not the speed of the prime mover (many idle when dynamic brakes are engaged)

The only things that vary in speed by throttle position are, the diesel engine itself, and on older locomotives, the air compressor.

 #503698  by mbta1051dan
 
conrail_engineer wrote:You aren't listening.

The roof mounted fans are NOT mechanically connected to the prime mover, the diesel engine. They turn on and off as needed, based on water temperature.

The "screamer" blower is the dynamic-brake grid cooling fan; and how loud it is, how fast it turns depends on the type and age of the locomotive - not the speed of the prime mover (many idle when dynamic brakes are engaged)

The only things that vary in speed by throttle position are, the diesel engine itself, and on older locomotives, the air compressor.
Ok I am listening. The MBTA screamers lack dynamic brakes, but the whine is still present, and I can distinguish it from the turbo whine.

There is definately a whine that varies in speed with the prime mover. Now I have no idea what it is. But check out youtube. Listen to the MBTA GP40MCs during throttle-up. (Don't listen to the one of 1131--that one has a bad turbo, so you can't hear anything else) Also check the video of the UK Class 66 engineroom. It looks like the radiator fans are in a seperate room from the prime mover, and are mounted on the radiators, and are electric, but they DO vary in speed when the driver (engineer) notches up and down the throttle.

PS check out the commentary. Most brits seem to HATE EMDs!!!

-Dan

 #503699  by conrail_engineer
 
mbta1051dan wrote:
Ok I am listening. The MBTA screamers lack dynamic brakes, but the whine is still present, and I can distinguish it from the turbo whine.
That explains things somewhat...passenger service. An entirely different animal than freight service.

You have HEP, the prime mover, on fixed speed, 900 rpm, to provide HEP.

What might be the wind-up that you hear when the throttle is pulled out? Frankly, I have no idea. You're sure it's not the turbo...since I never have worked with steady-engine-speed passenger power, I have to take your word for it.

NO sounds should accompany, automatically, the throttle ("exciter", actually) by itself. The engine should be loading up; and turbo whine increasing...but there's no cooling fan or other mechanical device that should be increasing speed.

Keep in mind...that the steady-rpm HEP "screamers" are staying steady at 900 RPMs; and and as such, nothing speeds up when the throttle is notched out.
mbta1051dan wrote:There is definately a whine that varies in speed with the prime mover. Now I have no idea what it is. But check out youtube. Listen to the MBTA GP40MCs during throttle-up. (Don't listen to the one of 1131--that one has a bad turbo, so you can't hear anything else) Also check the video of the UK Class 66 engineroom. It looks like the radiator fans are in a seperate room from the prime mover, and are mounted on the radiators, and are electric, but they DO vary in speed when the driver (engineer) notches up and down the throttle.
As to the last...the cooling fans are variable speed; and increase speed as needed.

If you'd post a link on Youtube, I'd be happy to comment on what it might be.

 #503718  by mbta1051dan
 
conrail_engineer wrote: If you'd post a link on Youtube, I'd be happy to comment on what it might be.
Here are two links:
This one is the UK EMD. Notice how the engineer (driver in UK) is notching up and down the throttle, and the person taking the video goes in a seperate room with the radiator fans, which decrease in pitch. (04:06-04:47) It sounds like the decrease in fan speed sound goes with the decrease of prime mover notching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH709Zam4uY

And check out the turbo whine on this GP40, 1131...it sounds awful!!! I have never heard one like this before...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vmIxcpu ... re=related

-Dan

 #503728  by conrail_engineer
 
Okay, looked at those two links.

First video...a straight EMD yard hostler/goof-off move Nothing to see except normal engine response. Obviously the engine was NOT set up for passenger/HEP service at that moment.

Second video...not sure, but it sounded like a DB at slow speeds. The whine was the dynamic brake blower. Had it bee the throttle, it would have ahd a much different sound...no chuff-chuff, but different.

 #503730  by Jtgshu
 
almost sounds like a noisy AR10.........???

 #503746  by mbta1051dan
 
conrail_engineer wrote:Okay, looked at those two links.

First video...a straight EMD yard hostler/goof-off move Nothing to see except normal engine response. Obviously the engine was NOT set up for passenger/HEP service at that moment.

Second video...not sure, but it sounded like a DB at slow speeds. The whine was the dynamic brake blower. Had it bee the throttle, it would have ahd a much different sound...no chuff-chuff, but different.
First video...ok but was that the radiator cooling fans? It seemed like the guy went into another room. I downloaded a diagram of the class 66, and it shows two electric radiator fans, looked like this was where the guy went. But he could have been standing next to the main-gen

Second video...what? You mean "been" the "turbo", it would have "had" a much different sound, remember (I'm trying not to be a know-it-all) that EMDs are notorious for turbo sounds like that, but I wonder if it is a main-gen problem. Everyone seems to think it's a turbo, though.

"almost sounds like a noisy AR10.........???"

You mean a main-gen/alt?

Maybe the EMD whine is actually the main-gen I'm hearing??? And the newer alternators sound different than the older generators?

-Dan

 #503772  by DutchRailnut
 
First Video = just standard gear noise from Turbo while in gear drive

The MBTA loco in second video sounds like same geabox but gone bad , loco does have problems going from Geared turbo to freewheeliong Turbo.
There is no Radiator blower noise.