ONR's "Northlander" To Be Discontinued.

[labaienordique]

Some nasty comments are circulating in the press:

Strang (Chamber of Commerce President) calls for Bartolucci's resignation
http://baytoday.ca/content/news/details.asp?c=48469

President John Strang stated with discuss today that “Minister Bartolucci has failed all northerners and I believe it’s time he tendered his resignation as Minister of Northern Development and Mines, as it is apparent that the north does not matter”.

Liberals fast-tracked end of Northlander: Bisson
http://www.timminspress.com/2012/08/16/ ... der-bisson

“This is a real bull**** announcement — and you can use that word, I don’t care,” MPP Gilles Bisson (NDP — Timmins-James Bay) told The Daily Press “The minister (Rick Bartolucci) told me last spring, because going back we've been trying to stop this privatization and keep the train running. In my conversation with Mr. Bartolucci I asked him point black when do you expect to shut down the train if everything happens, he said it won't happen until spring 2013.

[labaienordique]

Fund raiser to fight legally the MNDM's/Premier's decision:

STOP ONTC SELL OFF
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/20749 ... &a=1056783

[labaienordique]

STOP ONTC SELL OFF - Fundraiser

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/207499

Short Summary

First off, we cannot articulate any better than the description in the video posted here what the Ontario Northland does and means to Northeastern Ontario than the President of the ONTC himself. (Please take the time to view the video)

As citizens of Ontario we are faced with this questionable sell off. We have never faced, to this extent, this kind of Gov't recklessness thrust upon our culture and heritage. The iminate devastation this divestment will cause to our small, tightly united communities and families will be felt in the area for generations to come. It is our responsibility as citizens of today, and rightful owners of these public assets, to ensure that they remain in public hands for our future, thus preserving our northern heritage-culture and to maintain the vitality of Ontario over all.
What We Need & What You Get

Here's what we need:

- We are seeking $ 10,000 +

- All funds collected will be used 100% toward the legal costs incurred to fight the sale of the ONTC regardless.

- If we are awarded judgement, it will be 100% dedicated to a trust fund established to address any future situations of this nature.
The Impact

By contributing to this cause, YOU will assist in holding the Ontario Govt, accountable to the people of Ontario and the existing laws of this province.
Other Ways You Can Help

If you are unable to contribute money, there are other means by which you can help

- Please spread the word of this injustice, and our plight, to your friends far and wide

- Share the video.

- Share the indiegogo account to those who may be able to donate, or help with the above.

[Ken V]

Moderator note: I've decided to move this thread from the Canadian Railfan board to VIA Rail. The subject fits in both forums as it concerns a freight railway and a passenger train but, since there have been recent comments in other VIA threads regarding the Northlander, it seems more suited here now.

[labaienordique]

Would you feel safe riding on this surface?

Highway 11 North (near Temagami) in mid-winter

An announcement has been made by the provincial government that the Northlander passenger rail service (provided by Ontario Northland which is a provincial crown corporation in Ontario) will cease operating on September 28, 2012. Ontario Northland provides passenger rail service in a corridor of roughly 1000 km (between Moosonee, Cochrane, North Bay, Muskoka & Toronto).

While the province is investing in GO Transit:

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/973963/ ... -this-fall

"Starting this fall, Ontario will offer refunds to GO Train riders whose trains are more than 15 minutes late, except when delays are caused by extreme weather, police investigations, accidents and medical emergencies."

"Investing in public transit is part of the McGuinty government's plan to strengthen the economy. A strong economy protects the services that mean most to Ontario families — health care and education."

Attached is a picture of highway 11 North (near Temagami) in mid-winter. The province expects to provide "enhanced bus services" to replace the Northlander train. Would you feel safe riding on this surface?

[Gilbert B Norman]

One of the more balanced postings I have read regarding the divestiture. This material is posted at a site named Urban Toronto, of which I learned from reviewing material at another topic, and is offered here in response to Mr. Nordique's immediate:

Train service is not a right of passage.

People who live in isolated communities enjoy many benefits suchas the closeness of nature, no traffic, a low cost of living, and often a stronger sense of community. There are of course tradeoffs. By choosing to live in such areas you must also accept it's downsides one of which is fewer transportation options. People who live in more remote locations cannot at the same time expect services which are equal to one's in more populated areas. Expecting transportation services similar to heavily populated areas is unreasonable. Life is about compromises, there is no such thing as "the best of both worlds".

People in isolated areas have, in part, choosen it due to it's affordability but transportation systems are expensive..........you get what you pay for. Northlands should have been cancelled decades ago.

[labaienordique]

So are the diamond, gold, silver, nickel & chromite deposits that are supposed to help Ontario get out of its deficit.

According this poster's logic (the person you are quoting), it would appear a rural or Northern Ontarian 's tax dollars are somehow valued less because of geographic location (despite the annual contribution we provide to the economy - 10 Billion dollars worth annually according the province's own website). http://www.ontario.ca/en/about_ontario/004467.html

Fair is fair, and at some point we need to be treated equally. There is a universal standard of living that should be held across the board in this province & this country; something that I would argue isn't happening. We're not talking about one train every hour here, it's once a day in each direction. We're talking about a significant tax base for affected communities along highway 11.

[goodnightjohnwayne]

So are the diamond, gold, silver, nickel & chromite deposits that are supposed to help Ontario get out of its deficit.

According this poster's logic (the person you are quoting), it would appear a rural or Northern Ontarian 's tax dollars are somehow valued less because of geographic location (despite the annual contribution we provide to the economy - 10 Billion dollars worth annually according the province's own website). http://www.ontario.ca/en/about_ontario/004467.html

Fair is fair, and at some point we need to be treated equally. There is a universal standard of living that should be held across the board in this province & this country; something that I would argue isn't happening. We're not talking about one train every hour here, it's once a day in each direction. We're talking about a significant tax base for affected communities along highway 11.

Look at the revenues from Alberta's tar sands and other energy projects. Look at the prosperity and growth of Calgary. Do we see passenger rail to Fort McMurray? No. Do we even see passenger rail to Calgary. Nope. Mining doesn't require passenger rail, especially when there are paved roads paralleling the tracks. In any case, much of the mineral wealth remains a prospect for an increasingly uncertain future. Look at the volatility of energy and mineral prices in past decades. The reality is that Northern Ontario is a very thinly populated region where a high percentage of the population consumes far more in government services than it pays back in taxes. In contrast, the Greater Toronto Area has a high population density and a high percentage of high income taxpayers who are paying far more in taxes to the province in a single year than they'll ever consume in public services in an entire lifetime. You can't compare public transit in Toronto with an accommodation train to Moosonee - and the Northlander isn't even an accommodation train, since there's decent year around highway access to Cochrane.

I think you can make a case for preserving the current Ontario Northland trackage for future rail freight - making sure the (jointed!) rails aren't lifted for scrap. I also think you can make a case using the Ontario Northland, while it's still extant and reasonably well maintained, to haul in the huge amount of gravel necessary to construct a permanent year around highway to Moosonee. But it's equally clear that the status quo can't be maintained forever at taxpayer expense. At best, the Ontario Northland might be sustainable as a shortline freight operation, at shortline wage scales, although I have my doubts due to the sheer length of the line, the jointed rail and all of the softwood ties. (Does anyone know why the Province of Ontario used softwood ties? I'm guessing it's because deciduous hardwood forests don't grow this far north! Was there a local tie plant?)

[labaienordique]

When this country was built, the strategy to populate & develop areas of the country was through the railroad. It was and still remains an effective way to transport goods & people. It's environmentally conscious. It ensures that our highways don't continue to get damaged by the overuse of transport trucks. As listed in the De-Railed Film (by Dan Nystedt), 15 million dollars in the Northeast for short line rail compared to 650 million in roads.

The preview is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1tdJ6q7jYg

2:12 - 2:24

I suppose a bigger question remains, are Northerners still welcome in this province (Ontario)?

[goodnightjohnwayne]

When this country was built, the strategy to populate & develop areas of the country was through the railroad.

And that was before the internal combustion engine, the pneumatic tire and paved roads. Moreover, the sort of strategies employed to "populate & develop areas of the country" were hardly socially acceptable or moral by today's standards. In the case of the current Ontario Northland, which started as the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario Railway back in 1902, the initial motivation for taxpayer funded construction was anti-Francophone bigotry. Early 20th century Ontario politicians were eager to build a railway to bring Anglophone immigrants into Northern Ontario to outnumber potential Francophone settlers from the Province of Quebec. Of course, as we all know, there were precious few immigrants to desolate and inhospitable Northern Ontario, Anglophone, Francophone or otherwise, and the Province of Ontario has been subsidizing this railroad in one way or another for 110 years.

It was and still remains an effective way to transport goods & people.

It's never been a cost effective or sustainable operation - hence the need for subsidies. There aren't all that many people in the region, and consequently, not very many "goods" to transport for such a limited population.

It's environmentally conscious.

I'm not sure I'd want to compare the carbon footprint and emissions of a diesel bus and single driver, with the emissions of a GP-38 locomotive pulling 4 coaches and a dedicated diesel HEP car, not to mention the carbon footprint of a full train crew, plus the carbon footprint of the old fashioned track gangs that maintain all that old fashioned jointed rail, and the carbon footprint of the Ontario Northland car shops......and there's nothing "green" about the taxpayers subsidizing every aspect of life in small communities on James Bay.

It ensures that our highways don't continue to get damaged by the overuse of transport trucks.

I doubt that the (minimal) bus traffic resulting from the the end of the Northlander service will damage the highway(s), and if it's economic to ship bulk commodities by rail, those commodities won't be trucked.

[NS VIA FAN]

Attached is a picture of highway 11 North (near Temagami) in mid-winter. The province expects to provide "enhanced bus services" to replace the Northlander train. Would you feel safe riding on this surface?

Looks like February on TCH105 in Cape Breton…..the VIA Railiner between Sydney and Halifax has been gone since January 1990 or maybe its Highway 11 further west near Thunder Bay. The Canadian’s been gone from there also since 1990…….. And come to think of it, that photo could be just about anywhere in Canada in winter. You don’t provide heavily subsidized passenger trains for the occasional winter storm!

[labaienordique]

I'm well aware of the anti-francophone sentiment that existed at the time. There was a law prohibiting the teaching of french in the education system in Ontario (règlement 17). As a franco-ontarian, I know first hand what the challenges we are faced with. Off topic though.

It's never been a cost effective or sustainable operation - hence the need for subsidies. There aren't all that many people in the region, and consequently, not very many "goods" to transport for such a limited population.

I never said that it was cost effective. Under the current setup, it isn't working to its fullest potential. For example, I am unable to figure out why the train competes with the bus schedules in the middle of the day. The schedules need to be spaced out in such a way that the use of the train is practical. It is beyond me why he Northlander does not stop in the largest city in the area (for 400 or so km within any direction) - that being Timmins. In my opinion, the Northlander & Polar Bear Express should both terminate in Timmins. It is also beyond me why the Northlander is the only train in Northern Ontario that doesn't stop at many of the smaller communities (north of Gravenhurst) nor does the train have a stop in Richmond Hill (despite the facilities already in place). The Northlander should be a night train.

Furthermore, the Canadian Transport Authority filed a report (granted in 1993) regarding the Northlander train.

Decision No. 588-R-1993
http://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/588-r-1993

The Agency finds that the effect of the discontinuance of the passenger-train service on other services and carriers would be significant, especially for the highway system. However, given the decreases in both the number of accidents, and the accident rate, the Agency is not persuaded that the highway system would become so crowded that safety would be compromised. As to the effect on other carriers, the Agency is persuaded that the discontinuance of the passenger-train service could mean the eventual termination of the northern segment of the freight and passenger-service now operated by the ONR.

The Agency finds that the discontinuance of the Toronto-North Bay segment of the service would likely result in the demise of the segment north of North Bay. It must be noted, however, that this statement is based on the assumption that no other entity, such as the Province of Ontario, ONTC, or the type of private short-line operator suggested by Mr. Howard Restoule, Chairman of the Aboriginal Peoples Alliance of Northern Ontario, might purchase and operate the service.

In terms of other public interest issues, the Agency finds that the discontinuance of the passenger-train service would have significant effects on the population served by this service. The Agency recognizes that the passenger-train service represents an important component of the economy of northeastern Ontario, and that the area is undergoing a difficult economic transition from a resource base to other industries such as tourism. Discontinuance would have serious adverse implications for this economy at this time.

The Agency also finds that while bus service is an adequate alternative for many travellers, the requirements for the accommodation and comfort of individuals with medical needs, seniors and persons with disabilities are often better served by the train.

The Agency finds that, at this time, the economic and social impact of this service on the region it serves outweighs such factors as the losses incurred by the service, and that retention of the service is in the public interest.

The Agency determines that the passenger-train service comprised of Train Nos. 121 and 122, jointly operated by the Ontario Northland Railway and the Canadian National Railway Company, between Toronto and North Bay, in the province of Ontario, is uneconomic, but that this passenger-train service is in the public interest and should not be discontinued.

What's changed (other than the decade of which we find ourselves)?

Here is what is at stake:

- close to 1000 direct jobs affected by this decision
- the spin-off economics from these positions
- the tax base that municipalities, town & cities require to pay for local infrastructure, social & economic developments (both from the commission & the residents employed by said commission)
- a transportation & communications network created & payed for by tax-payers dedicated towards serving rural & remote communities

Municipal taxes will rise (considerably) if the decision isn't in our favour...

Business' who have a direct or indirect connection are going to suffer from reduced business (whether it's a supplier to the ONTC or the local shop who sells a pack of gum to an employee)...

Fewer employment options for people living along the 11 corridor...

Fewer short & longer distance transportation options for those who require them... (particularly for those who are ill or disabled)

Ultimately, a reduction in the population size for all of our areas...

If the infrastructure is not in place to spur development in our area (such as a railroad), then I would love to hear any strategy proposals to help Northern Ontario grow its economy, its population...

[goodnightjohnwayne]

I'm well aware of the anti-francophone sentiment that existed at the time. There was a law prohibiting the teaching of french in the education system in Ontario (règlement 17). As a franco-ontarian, I know first hand what the challenges we are faced with. Off topic though.

I think it's important to remember how the Province of Ontario came to own and operate a railroad in Northern Ontario, built and subsidized for 110 years at taxpayer expense.

I never said that it was cost effective. Under the current setup, it isn't working to its fullest potential. For example, I am unable to figure out why the train competes with the bus schedules in the middle of the day. The schedules need to be spaced out in such a way that the use of the train is practical. It is beyond me why he Northlander does not stop in the largest city in the area (for 400 or so km within any direction) - that being Timmins. In my opinion, the Northlander & Polar Bear Express should both terminate in Timmins. It is also beyond me why the Northlander is the only train in Northern Ontario that doesn't stop at many of the smaller communities (north of Gravenhurst) nor does the train have a stop in Richmond Hill (despite the facilities already in place). The Northlander should be a night train.

VIA's Northland night train fell victim to budget cuts back in 1990 - ancient history. It's been done before, it lost money, it was cut 22 years ago. Now the Northlander is going to enter the past tense as well. I think it's time you should accept that as of September 28, the Northlander is going to be history.

Furthermore, the Canadian Transport Authority filed a report (granted in 1993) regarding the Northlander train.



What's changed (other than the decade of which we find ourselves)?

A lot has changed since 1993! Back in 1993, the NDP was running the Province of Ontario with 74 seats. Yes, as shocking as it seems, the NDP once ran the Province of Ontario and ran it straight into the ground. Flash forward to 2011 and the NDP has worked its way back to 17 seats, the same as 1995, which actually represents a fairly strong showing for a party that still hasn't recovered from the ill starred Premiership of Bob Rae. Northern Ontario is still a NDP stronghold, but the NDP wasn't willing to force an election over the Ontario Northland. Why? Because they probably wouldn't gain seats in a snap election that they forced over the Ontario Northland.

Here is what is at stake:

- close to 1000 direct jobs affected by this decision
- the spin-off economics from these positions
- the tax base that municipalities, town & cities require to pay for local infrastructure, social & economic developments (both from the commission & the residents employed by said commission)
- a transportation & communications network created & payed for by tax-payers dedicated towards serving rural & remote communities

Municipal taxes will rise (considerably) if the decision isn't in our favour...

Business' who have a direct or indirect connection are going to suffer from reduced business (whether it's a supplier to the ONTC or the local shop who sells a pack of gum to an employee)...

Fewer employment options for people living along the 11 corridor...

Fewer short & longer distance transportation options for those who require them... (particularly for those who are ill or disabled)

Ultimately, a reduction in the population size for all of our areas...

If the infrastructure is not in place to spur development in our area (such as a railroad), then I would love to hear any strategy proposals to help Northern Ontario grow its economy, its population...

Well yes, a tremendously high percentage of Northern Ontario residents are dependent either directly or indirectly upon the largesse of the Province of Ontario. From the standpoint of the tiny population of Northern Ontario, it's a big issue. From the standpoint of Toronto, it's just a matter of politically unpopular income transferal. The taxpayers of the entire province are subsidizing Northern Ontario. Why? Well, back in 1902 it was justified on the basis of anti-Francophone prejudice, which isn't acceptable today and probably didn't stand scrutiny back in 1902 either. How do you justify it in the year 2012? How do you convince votes in Southern Ontario, or Eastern Ontario to cut public services to their own communities and increase taxes to subsidize 1,000 unionized, highly paid ONTC employees? You can't. The NDP, very wisely, decided that the future of the Ontario Northland wasn't an issue worthy of forcing an election. It was a losing issue.

[neroden]

goodnightjohnwayne: Think *very carefully* about the logical consequences of the argument you are making.

The logical consequence is that Northern Ontario should secede from Ontario. With rich mineral resources and a small population, it could establish a profitable and successful program of economic development and leave Toronto begging for help.

After all, from Northern Ontario's point of view, what are they getting from being part of Ontario?

I suspec the Aboriginal peoples would rather like to have the land back to govern for themselves.

[Wingnut]

Goodnightjohnwayne and labaienordique, you've presented good, thought provoking arguments in favor and against abandoning the Northlander. The debate comes down to this: Should the majority in Southern Ontario continue to suffer some financial pain so the few in Northern Ontario can avoid a greater overall pain? How much economic activity and tax revenue is attributed to the Ontario Northland freight service? Is it greater than the subsidy required for the Northlander train? The answer to this question is what should decide the train’s fate.

As a strong proponent of passenger rail transport, it’s always painful for me to admit when a service is unsustainable and should be discontinued. But without the prospect of increasing population and an accompanying reduction in subsidy per passenger mile traveled, the Northlander appears to have no future, even if a reprieve were forthcoming.

On a different note, I will be visiting Toronto the beginning of the last week in September. I'm contemplating giving up my Toronto plans for a now-or-never trip to Cochrane but more than likely I won't be able to do it. The Station Inn is booked so I'd have to find alternative accomodations. Moreover, I have almost no chance of buying a ticket early in the morning and getting a window seat.