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Discussion of Canadian Passenger Rail Services such as AMT (Montreal), Go Transit (Toronto), VIA Rail, and other Canadian Railways and Transit

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 #1032856  by labaienordique
 
18000 members in Facebook. Closing in on 3800 signatures for the petition.

FONOM President Reacts to Sale of ONTC
http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/ckat ... e-of-ontc/

Teamsters join in the protest against selling off Ontario Northland assets
http://www.timminstimes.com/ArticleDisp ... ?e=3517332

Timmins disappointed and angry at Premier Dalton McGuinty
http://www.timminstimes.com/ArticleDisp ... ?e=3515160

Leaders fear divestment of northern Ontario
http://www.kapuskasingtimes.com/Article ... ?e=3517088

Open Letter to our MPP, Vic Fedeli
http://solventmagazine.com/solventwp2/2 ... ic-fedeli/
 #1033004  by NS VIA FAN
 
labaienordique wrote:18000 members in Facebook. Closing in on 3800 signatures for the petition.
Would be interesting to know how many of these have ever been on a train.....plan to ride a train or even know where the Northlander runs!
 #1033184  by labaienordique
 
In my opinion, if the Government of Ontario will continue to finance & expand GO Transit's train service, then there is an obligation to also do the same for Ontario Northland's Northlander & Polar Bear Express passenger rail services. Otherwise, it's a double standard.

Train travel is comfortable for long distance travel. It is far more comfortable than traveling by bus. Trains in rural Canada are not money makers but they provide an essential service to connect smaller communities to the larger urban areas for those who need it. Trains have the capacity to carry more people than buses do as well.

The premiere of Ontario is quoted in saying the Ring of Fire project has the potential to grow & shape Ontario's economy over the next 150 years. This project is located in this part of Ontario (McFauld's Lake).
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=McFaulds+L ... ke&t=m&z=6

If the province can't justify providing basic services to Northern Ontario, I would honestly question our continued existence as society within this province and whether we should form our own jurisdiction within Canada.
 #1033198  by NS VIA FAN
 
labaienordique wrote:In my opinion, if the Government of Ontario will continue to finance & expand GO Transit's train service, then there is an obligation to also do the same for Ontario Northland's Northlander & Polar Bear Express passenger rail services. Otherwise, it's a double standard.

Train travel is comfortable for long distance travel. It is far more comfortable than traveling by bus. Trains in rural Canada are not money makers but they provide an essential service to connect smaller communities to the larger urban areas for those who need it. Trains have the capacity to carry more people than buses do as well.
GO continues to expand in southern Ontario where there is a ready market of hundreds if not thousands of passengers. Highways are congested. This cannot be said of northern Ontario. Highway 11 has been divided nearly all the way to North Bay and is a very good two-lane highway beyond. The existing bus service can easily absorb the bus-load or less that currently rides the Northlander. Passenger trains are not an essential service here like northern Manitoba, the White River RDC or Labrador service where there are no other means of access.
 #1033361  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
labaienordique wrote:In my opinion, if the Government of Ontario will continue to finance & expand GO Transit's train service, then there is an obligation to also do the same for Ontario Northland's Northlander & Polar Bear Express passenger rail services. Otherwise, it's a double standard.

Train travel is comfortable for long distance travel. It is far more comfortable than traveling by bus. Trains in rural Canada are not money makers but they provide an essential service to connect smaller communities to the larger urban areas for those who need it. Trains have the capacity to carry more people than buses do as well.

The premiere of Ontario is quoted in saying the Ring of Fire project has the potential to grow & shape Ontario's economy over the next 150 years. This project is located in this part of Ontario (McFauld's Lake).
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=McFaulds+L ... ke&t=m&z=6

If the province can't justify providing basic services to Northern Ontario, I would honestly question our continued existence as society within this province and whether we should form our own jurisdiction within Canada.
Consider these facts:

Ontario Northland, total workforce: 966
Moosonee, Ontario, total population: 1,725

I have to wonder about the overall level of per capita public sector spending in this region? Is it in the 5 figure range or the 6 figure range?
 #1033724  by labaienordique
 
The ONR employees are spread out over a network between Hearst, Moosonee, Cochrane, Rouyn-Noranda (QC), Timmins, Sudbury & North Bay.

The highway, while it is in good condition, remains remote. Cellular service is sporadic at best, non-existent at times between Latchford & North Bay. The quality of the plowing of Northern Highways has significantly diminished in the winter.

The markets that Ontario Northland & GO Transit should be a par with one another, not one lower than the other. GO Transit benefits from double the funding per passenger than the ONR. Passenger trains in Northern Ontario are important simply because of the sheer distance one must travel to get from point A to point B. There are no private passenger trains in rural Canada that don't receive subsidies. I fail to understand how we're any different.

I agree that there are improvements that can be made the ONTC's services, but flat out ripping it out of the hands of the people it is supposed to serve is incredibly unfair without being provided an opportunity to demonstrate our case.
 #1033731  by mtuandrew
 
labaienordique wrote:I agree that there are improvements that can be made the ONTC's services, but flat out ripping it out of the hands of the people it is supposed to serve is incredibly unfair without being provided an opportunity to demonstrate our case.
Playing devil's advocate, one could say that ONTC's passenger services have demonstrated their case through decades of financial statements.

That said, I agree with you, but think there's a middle ground. Whether ONTC remains in public hands or not (and I'd expect both CP and CN to bid heavily for the company) the province does have an obligation to at least investigate continued rail passenger service, through VIA, GO, ONTC's successor company, or an independent contractor.
 #1033870  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
labaienordique wrote:The ONR employees are spread out over a network between Hearst, Moosonee, Cochrane, Rouyn-Noranda (QC), Timmins, Sudbury & North Bay.

The highway, while it is in good condition, remains remote. Cellular service is sporadic at best, non-existent at times between Latchford & North Bay.
That must be ONTERA, yet another provincially subsidized operation:

http://www.ontera.ca/en/about.html


labaienordique wrote: The quality of the plowing of Northern Highways has significantly diminished in the winter.
At least the highways exist, even to Moosonee, if you count the season ice road. I'm guessing that an ice road isn't the smoothest form of conveyance, but in the absence of a railroad, you could always truck bulk commodities in during the winter and stockpile them for the rest of the year.
labaienordique wrote:The markets that Ontario Northland & GO Transit should be a par with one another, not one lower than the other. GO Transit benefits from double the funding per passenger than the ONR. Passenger trains in Northern Ontario are important simply because of the sheer distance one must travel to get from point A to point B. There are no private passenger trains in rural Canada that don't receive subsidies. I fail to understand how we're any different.

I agree that there are improvements that can be made the ONTC's services, but flat out ripping it out of the hands of the people it is supposed to serve is incredibly unfair without being provided an opportunity to demonstrate our case.
GO Transit services the most populous and affluent areas of Ontario - the areas that pay taxes far in excess of the public services received. The Ontario Northland services the least populated areas of Ontario - the areas that consume far more in public services than they pay in taxes. So there really isn't any real comparison. Even on a political level, it makes sense to provide services to areas with large numbers of voters, not areas with very few voters.
labaienordique wrote:Sounding the alarm about privatizing rail services
http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/ckat ... -services/
I really don't see where the head of a hospital workers union has any perspective on railroad safety?
 #1033874  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
mtuandrew wrote:
labaienordique wrote:I agree that there are improvements that can be made the ONTC's services, but flat out ripping it out of the hands of the people it is supposed to serve is incredibly unfair without being provided an opportunity to demonstrate our case.
Playing devil's advocate, one could say that ONTC's passenger services have demonstrated their case through decades of financial statements.

That said, I agree with you, but think there's a middle ground. Whether ONTC remains in public hands or not (and I'd expect both CP and CN to bid heavily for the company) the province does have an obligation to at least investigate continued rail passenger service, through VIA, GO, ONTC's successor company, or an independent contractor.
VIA did have a second daily train over the route, complete with a sleeping car, until the 1990 cuts. Consider that there is now decent year around highway access to Cochrane, it can no longer be justified as an accomodation train. There might be the possibility of shortlining the ONR, but I really dont' see it as a viable line for CN or CP, unless mining and forrestry provide a very signficant volume of freight traffic. It might happen, someday, in the long run. Consider the tar sands in Alberta, where CN bought back a line from a shortline operator. Moosonee isn't Fort McMurray and isn't likely to become a boom town.
 #1033888  by Tadman
 
I fail to understand how we're any different
Ontario population is 12.8m
Southern ON (IE South of Huntsville) is 12.1m population
Northern ON is 745,000 population, including Thunder Bay (645k) and the Soo (74k).

That leaves the Norther Ontario region served by ONR with a total possible population of about 25k people.

Looks to me like there's not a lot of passengers for the passenger trains they run. I'm not sure what fair ever had to do with it, but I'll play along and ask why it's fair that 12,800,000 people are paying for trains that serve 25,000 people, when Thunder Bay has no trains.

I don't want to lose the Northlander, I really want to take a ride, but objectively it's a hard case to make. Maybe the real solution is to sell the freight railroad to CN and require them to allow the Northlander to run or operate it, like the ACR trains. I suspect that ONR, being a government ward, may yield some efficiencies much in the way CN did after privatisation. We all know the story of the Montreal yardmaster after his first meeting with EHH.
 #1033982  by briann
 
Just a correction on the population of the area served by Ontario Northland. According to the Ministry of Northern Development, Mines and Forestry (http://www.mndm.gov.on.ca/northern_deve ... ario_e.pdf), the 2010 population of that part of northern Ontario served by the Northlander is actually 213,000. This includes the area from Gravenhurst (the first stop on the Newmarket Sub) northwards along the highway 11 corridor to Hearst, as well as to Moosonee. Certainly much more than the 25,000 quoted.

And if we're going to have a discussion about who pays for what, we need to remember that the economy of northern Ontario contributes more than its fair share of resource revenue to Ontario's coffers.
 #1034067  by NS VIA FAN
 
Residents of Northern Ontario have been given more than enough opportunity to show that they want passenger rail service. But as the divided portion of Hwy 11 reaches North Bay and along with the road improvement north of there…….usage continues to decline on the Northlander. It’s a good service with some nice amenities but people just aren’t riding anymore…….. or at least not in the numbers that can sustain the service.

But go Southern Ontario…….GO adds a train and the passengers flock aboard. Spend the limited funds that are available where they make sense.
 #1034074  by labaienordique
 
Ontario Northland General Chairpersons’ Association
Representing members of

MoveOntario - “The 23 cent solution”

For Immediate Release April 4, 2011

North Bay- The General Chairpersons’ Association (GCA) which represents all unionized employees at Ontario Northland is increasingly frustrated by McGuinty’s abandonment of Northern Ontario to the benefit of Southern Ontario”

“In addition to providing services to Northern Ontario, the ONTC has a significant economic and social impact in not only the communities we serve but also in all of Ontario and we want to set the record straight for Ontario taxpayers” said Brian Kelly, GCA spokesperson.

“This past week in the Ontario Legislature, Premier McGuinty (as recorded in Hansard) has mislead Ontarians with his disingenuous statements and we feel it is incumbent on us to correct the record as best we can and to provide additional information to taxpayers of the province” added Kelly
Hon. Dalton McGuinty - …the ONTC … revenue has declined
*source Hansard March 27, 2012

“In 2003, the first year of the McGuinty Liberal government, ONTC net revenue (excluding government contributions) was $108.6M and in spite of the global economic downturn that affected every sector of the economy, the demise of the mining sector in Timmins and the forest industry across the North, ONTC net revenue for 2011/12 will be $116.2 M, an increase of 7% .

In 2005 and 2006 for instance, just prior to the economic collapse, ONTC net revenues were $143M and $125M respectively and a large part of that revenue stream came from Ontera and the GO Contract and we likely would have maintained that revenue stream had the McGuinty government not sent GO Transit work to CAD Rail in Montreal.”

Hon. Dalton McGuinty - …the ONTC… ridership has remained stagnant
* source Hansard March 27, 2012

“The truth is ridership has seen increases year over year in all passenger services. The Northlander ridership in 2009/10 was 31,746 and it increased by 10% in 2010/11 to 34,959. This year, ending March 31, ridership count is expected to jump an additional 16% to 40,552 riders. This certainly does not sound like a service that is in decline. The data indicates that all passenger services will see in increase in ridership;
Polar Bear up 0.5% with over 64,000 passengers,
Motor Coach up 4% on northern routes with over 71,000 passengers
Motor Coach up 5.5% on southern routes with over 158,000 passengers
Bus charter days up 43% to over 950 charters
* Rail passenger ridership surpasses VIA Rail’s on a per capita basis

Hon. Dalton McGuinty – the ONTC …subsidy levels have increased some 274%, from $27.6 million in 2003 to $103 million in 2011
*source Hansard March 27, 2012

Subsidy levels have increased, however Premier McGuinty is not providing the whole story that puts the uniqueness of 2011 subsidy and contributions in perspective. It includes;

$4.5M of the promised $10M to refurbish the Polar Bear passenger cars. That program is now scrapped and the MNDN is reclaiming that $4.5M.

The purchase of Sault Ste Marie PUC by the Ontario Government was financed through the ONTC at the amount of $3.5M.

Northlander subsidy remained at previous year level at $10.263M

Polar Bear subsidy remained at previous year level at $10,897M

Ferry Service subsidy remained at previous year level of $41,000

Capital costs and upgrades of $21.6M

Other monies were provided to offset costs due to economic downturn, assist in the Metrolinx bid and pay off lines of credit

2011 Pension Contribution of $27.7M to deal with the pension plan solvency as required by the pension regulators and Revenue Canada.
o It should be noted that in 2003/04 McGuinty Government withdrew $47.8M from the pension plan to assist in the restructuring through early retirements.
o There was no regulatory requirement for pension contributions (ONTC & employee) into the plan over a 10 year period ending in January 2011 totaling approximately $48M.

Since 2003, following subsidies have been provided to ONTC to help offset the costs of providing services that the Ontario Government mandates the ONTC to provide”

Northlander Service (2003-2011) - $86,741, 000
Polar Bear Service (2003-2011) - $89,741,000 (McGuinty to continuing this service)
Ferry Service (2003-2011) - $636,000
* Over the same period (2003-2011) the Federal Government has contributed $23,125,000 to Northlander service.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty – .. our record of support for ONTC, back to 2003 … $439 million
*source Hansard March 27, 2012

What Premier McGuinty is not telling you is the benefit gained to the province for that support;

ONTC Net Revenue earned = $1,069,983 Billion
Economic Impact (2.11 revenue multi) = $2,257,644 Billion

ONTC Wages paid = $527,132 million
Economic Impact (1.29 value added multi) = $680,000 million


Hon McGuinty - the ONTC … subsidy .. of some $400 per passenger .. we could no longer afford
Source – Hansard April 2,

“On June 15, 2007, Premier McGuinty announced the government's plan to fund 52 projects in Ontario to improve transit services. It should have been evident at that time that the Premier’s largeness with government support of transit projects would end 6 kilometers either side of the 401 highway corridor. With the introduction of the budget on Tuesday March 27, 2012, McGuinty demonstrated a significantly different treatment of the North (ONTC) versus his support for the South (Metrolinx)” Kelly

“What McGuinty said in the legislature is that Northerners simply can’t have it all like his cherished Southern Ontario taxpayers. For Northern Ontario, if taxpayers in the region want healthcare, education, highways, a new school of architecture and a new law school then McGuinty has no option but to chop the ONTC, contending that it is not affordable to do it all (hansard March 29, 2012). In Southern Ontario, taxpayers get all of those services and MORE” continued Kelly

In 2009/10 Metrolinx embarked on its largest capital investment program ever (source Annual Report). Investment in capital expenditure totaled $1.16 Billion compared to $861 million the previous year. An increase of 34% in capital investment alone in one year and an increase of 320% over 2005/06 support by McGuinty, and the money keeps rolling in for Metrolinx.

“The GCA proposes the “23 cent solution” in which all Ontario taxpayers, North and South will have equal support to provincially funded inter-city passenger services, without distinction. It involves a single stroke of the legislative pen that joins ONTC into Metrolinx where the economies of balance out the longer distances in the North with the population density of the South” concluded Kelly.

55,000,000 Metrolinx Passengers $10,263,000 Northlander Prov Subsidy
$5 Subsidy per passenger 40,552 Northlander Passengers
$275,000,000 Total Provincial Subsidy $253 Subsidy per passenger

By combining ridership and subsidy per passenger for Northlander and Metrolinx GO services we can then truly say that the Ontario Government is supporting the whole of Ontario.

$275,000,000 Metrolinx passenger subsidy
10,263,000 Northlander subsidy Province
2,500,000 Northlander subsidy Federal
$287,763,000 total subsidy provided

55,000,000 Metrolinx Passengers
40,552 Northlander Passengers
55,040,552 Intercity passengers

$ 287,763,000 total subsidy provided (2011/12)
55,040,552 total intercity passengers (2011/12)
$ 5.23 Subsidy per passenger

For more information please contact Brian Kelly at 705-471-5263
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