Staten Island

[Gunsnclapton]

What exactly did the NYSW do on Staten Island? Did they actually operate on the island or did they just operate the NJ portion of it. Just curious about it.

[Sir Ray]

What exactly did the NYSW do on Staten Island? Did they actually operate on the island or did they just operate the NJ portion of it. Just curious about it.

Did the NYS&W itself do anything with the former B&O lines in New Jersey/Staten Island.
Those lines were operated by Delaware Otsego Corporation (DO), which according to wiki is a holding company that owns NYS&W as well as other railroad lines.

I'm not saying that NYS&W equipment wasn't ever run on the Staten Island, but it would prpbably be under a 'family of railroads' loan arrangement. Anyway, it was DO which embargoed pretty much everything in that area (the NJ Cranford to AK line, and the Staten Island freight service) in the early 1990s.

[dano23]

They operated it. There was still business on the Island when they took over, however as the business left, the line became shorter and shorter. The main killer to the service there was the closing of the Proctor and Gamble plant which for the most part was the majority of the traffic on the island. Service ended towards the end of 92 with the locking of AK drawbridge in the upright position.

[Sir Ray]

They operated it.

Is that really true - according to the Wiki Article I linked to (and various memories I have from reading magazines at the time, e.g Railpace - OK, sometimes they do get stories correct) , Delaware Otsego Corporation (which was founded by Walter Rich years before it acquired NYS&W) was the parent holding company, and the company that ran it's various subsidaries including the Staten Island. Now, perhaps NYS&W was so big compared to the other DO railroads that it did, in effect, run things, even though technically it was just another subsidiary like the others - is that what you meant?

[waldwickrailfan]

They operated it.

Is that really true - according to the Wiki Article I linked to (and various memories I have from reading magazines at the time, e.g Railpace - OK, sometimes they do get stories correct) , Delaware Otsego Corporation (which was founded by Walter Rich years before it acquired NYS&W) was the parent holding company, and the company that ran it's various subsidaries including the Staten Island. Now, perhaps NYS&W was so big compared to the other DO railroads that it did, in effect, run things, even though technically it was just another subsidiary like the others - is that what you meant?

note: wiki lies.

[dano23]

The question was if the line was operated in general and the answer was yes. In this period of time NYSW crews ran everything. In the beginning yes, equipment was painted up DO system colors but once Walter bought the NYSW, pieced up the Northern Division and connected all the pieces with haulage then trackage rights, the NYSW became the face of everything. All parts became interchangeable be it crews or motive power or maintenance.

When service towards the end became sporadic enough, crews actually marked on duty at Little Ferry to go work the Staten Island.

They operated it.

Is that really true - according to the Wiki Article I linked to (and various memories I have from reading magazines at the time, e.g Railpace - OK, sometimes they do get stories correct) , Delaware Otsego Corporation (which was founded by Walter Rich years before it acquired NYS&W) was the parent holding company, and the company that ran it's various subsidaries including the Staten Island. Now, perhaps NYS&W was so big compared to the other DO railroads that it did, in effect, run things, even though technically it was just another subsidiary like the others - is that what you meant?

[hrfcarl]

Just want to confirm: IIRC, Conrail Shared Assets operates on this line but do they own it or just have usage rights?

Thanks.

[DogBert]

I believe the entire line is now owned by the NYNJ Port Authority, including the travis branch.

When DO took over from CSX(BO) in the 80s, they ran all the way to the ferry terminal. I believe around 85 it was cut back half the distance and eventually became just a run over the bridge to P&G. P&G had, at one point, their own in-plant railway switching. The travis branch was shut down in the 80s as well, when con ed stopped keeping a coal stockpile/backup power at the end of the line.For a long time there were a few SIRT cars abandoned in the coal yard. I believe the final car left there was bashed apart by a backhoe during the rehab of the line. Apparently it belonged a transit museum.

When the port authority wanted to reopen the marine terminal next to the old p&g plant, they fixed up AK and got shared assess on board to service the line.

[Sir Ray]

I believe the entire line is now owned by the NYNJ Port Authority, including the travis branch.
When DO took over from CSX(BO) in the 80s, they ran all the way to the ferry terminal. I believe around 85 it was cut back half the distance and eventually became just a run over the bridge to P&G. P&G had, at one point, their own in-plant railway switching. The travis branch was shut down in the 80s as well, when con ed stopped keeping a coal stockpile/backup power at the end of the line.

Hmm, this site (photo caption) has a slightly different take on the '80s:

In November 1957, an Esso oil tanker collided with the old Arthur Kill bridge, knocking it off its central pivot. With the bridge rendered useless, the B&O immediately transferred all Staten Island freight to Jersey City. Car floats were used to bring Staten Island rail traffic back to St. George. By 1959, a new 558 foot single track vertical lift span replaced the old swing bridge. It is the longest of its type in the U.S. Along with the new bridge, the entire line from Cranford Jct to Arlington Yard was re-laid with new, heavier rail. A three mile branch line was extended from Gulf Port to Travis, along Staten Island’s west shore. This was done for unit coal trains coming from West Virginia to service a new Consolidated Edison power plant. Even late in the 1950’s, the B&O continued to invest in its New Jersey and Staten Island holdings.
By 1973, the Jersey Central closed its car float yard at Jersey City. The B&O then moved its car float freight back to St. George on Staten Island. In September 1979, this car float operation was taken over by the New York Dock Railway and was terminated in 1980. The St. George Yard was essentially abandoned, except for servicing a few isolated Staten Island industries still using rail service.
The interline tariff routing arrangement used by B&O/Chessie to reach New Jersey and New York was ended by Conrail in the early 1980’s, leaving the line completely out of the New Jersey freight market. In April 1985, the operating rights for the tracks between Cranford Jct to St. George were sold to the Delaware-Otsego Corp. of Cooperstown, NY.

Maybe a gap there in chronology (it was a photo caption after all), but did the DO have any reason to run to St. George in revenue freight? The float yard was gone, and I really don't know of any freight customers in the area, even back then.

[XBNSFer]

Maybe a gap there in chronology (it was a photo caption after all), but did the DO have any reason to run to St. George in revenue freight? The float yard was gone, and I really don't know of any freight customers in the area, even back then.

They might have. There was, in addition to the freight-only North Shore Line between the AK Drawbridge and St. George, trackage rights on the Staten Island Rapid Transit (SIRT), now (as of 1994) the Staten Island Railway (SIR) owned by the MTA, between St. George and Tottenville, the southern extreme of Staten Island. There was a smelting plant near Tottenville (Nassau Smelting) that used rail freight for many years, but that was probably gone by the time NYSW/DO operated the SIRR (Nassau Smelting was probably out of business by mid-late 1980s at the latest, as the plant site attained "brownfield" status when some buildings were demolished in about 1986) as well as a newspaper (the Staten Island Advance) that used to get newsprint, somewhere near Clifton I think. Both of these customers (among others on the SIRT line) were accessed via the SIRT trackage rights, but I'm not sure when those customers stopped using rail. If any were still active freight customers in the NYSW/DO operation period, that probably would be their reason for operating the full length of the North Shore Line to St. George, as opposed to any other freight customers on the North Shore line east of Mariners Harbor. I actually think I recall seeing one of the NYSW SW's on the SIRT trackage in the Clifton area, don't recall exactly when, and no, I didn't get a picture.

The Cross Siclair paper processing plant in Mariner's Harbor used rail for many years, as did a lumber yard (Terminal Lumber), also in Mariner's Harbor, and the lumber yard was among the last active customers; the North Shore Line track near the end of NYSW/DO operation was obviously in service up to the point necessary to switch the lumber yard (which was between Union Ave and Harbor Rd), and just as obviously disused and being reclaimed by nature east of that point. There was also a customer on the Travis Branch (Visey Paper), and I'm not sure when they stopped using rail either. NYSW/DO handled outgoing coal from the Con Edison power plant (also on the Travis Branch) until a stockpile there was removed. The P&G plant was the "raison d'etre" for the existence of rail freight on Staten Island in those days, so once that closed it was inevitable that operations would cease.

[Gunsnclapton]

Ha, a NYSW engine in Clifton? I would have loved to see a picture of that. Its hard to imagine a NYSW engine down the block from my house. I wish they still ran here on the island so I could dead head all the way to Utica.

[Lronan]

FYI, when I worked at Phelps Dodge Corp, in the Traffic Dept. from 1968 to 1979, we moved freight over the B&O to St George.
This freight consisted of carloads of copper, railed to St George and floated to Laurel Hill on Newtown Creek in Queens for our refinery.

[Lronan]

Another FYI, they now move garbage trains out of Travis on a regular basis now.

[NaDspr]

In April 1985, the Delaware Otsego / NYS&W took over the freight operations from the B&O/Chessie/SIRT. The railroad was named Staten Island Railway. They operated freight service between St. George Yard and Cranford Jct., NJ. Interchange was with Conrail on Tks 4 and 6 at Cranford Jct. At the time of the takeover, the NYS&W retained 4 former B&O train crew employees, 1 clerk, 1 AK Bridge operator and 1 trainmaster. Also included in the deal was former Chessie engine C&O 9051 which became NYS&W 120 and a caboose which became NYS&W 0121.The main customers on Staten Island at the time were Proctor & Gamble, US Lines at the Howland Hook Marine Terminal and Consolidated Edison. However, there were a handful of other customers some of which included Laminated Paper, Federal Plastics, Terminal Lumber and Cross Sinclair.

In 1986, the NYS&W took over the Rahway Valley Railroad. Customers I recall on the RVRR included Monsanto and Jaeger Lumber. The RV had 2 70-ton engines # 16 and # 17 which remained in RV paint the remainder of their lives under NYS&W control. Eventually as business on the Staten Island Railway declined, the SIRY crew also serviced the Rahway Valley customers crossing over the NJT Raritan Line at Excee Tower.

The SIRY crew and engine was based in Arlington Yard. My records indicate the last train to pull cars off Staten Island ran on March 9, 1991. The last train on SIRY-RVRR ran in April 1991 with engineer Anthony Carone (original B&O/Chessie employee) and Richard Travis as conductor. (I can't find the exact date but perhaps Rich Travis will read this and fill in the blanks) Over the years, eng 120 (painted in NYS&W yellow and black) was the primary engine used on Staten Island however the NYS&W 1800 series engines were also used at times.

[Lronan]

P.S. In the 60's and the 70's, carloads of rolled newspaper was delivered to the local paper on Staten Island, 'the Staten Island Advance". Later the print paper was brought in via truck.