Southern Tier Signals

[SecaucusJunction]

Could NS conceivably use the line for through trains even though it is on lease to CNY? I think I remember them stating that they still have trackage rights.

[cjvrr]

L&HR C&S,

Thank you for the response! Nice to get the info from the source

Will the new / updated signal system be tied into dispatcher's office and displayed via computer monitors as other parts of the system currently are?

What is "Harmon EC5" is that underground cable?

Chris

[SecaucusJunction]

Looking at the map of Norfolk Southern, I dont see how trains from Virginia will run over the Penn Route. They look way too south for that. Am I missing something or will the 20 new trains come from somewhere else?

When does the Port Authority plan to double the amount of containers coming into NY/NJ? Will these come from other ports or are they still talking about this magical increase in traffic that I've been hearing about for years?

[cjvrr]

Could NS conceivably use the line for through trains even though it is on lease to CNY? I think I remember them stating that they still have trackage rights.

Yes. Again I don't know the exact terms of the lease, but I doubt NS would cut their own throats on using this line if the need arose. Since the lease has begun there have been at least 2 or 3 occasions that NS trains detoured over the line due to problems on their Penn Route.

[cjvrr]

When does the Port Authority plan to double the amount of containers coming into NY/NJ? Will these come from other ports or are they still talking about this magical increase in traffic that I've been hearing about for years?

I must admit that I am using the PA's numbers and projections. Most US Ports are predicting large increases in containerized traffic over the next 20 years. My guess is as more and more products are made overseas, and our demand increases due to population growth we will see these increases.

Traffic will be both ways, meaning increases in containers being offloaded from ship and arriving from the west coast via train. Not sure how much is using the US as a land bridge between Asia and Europe.

[washingtonsecondary]

I just had a meeting with a freight forwarder and the subject of land bridges came up. Apperently it is faster to leave the containers on the ship and bring the ship from China through the Panama canal and up the east coast, rather then off load them in LA and put them on rail and shoot them across the country. Most likely cause is the congestion of the LA ports.

My company brings in containers from Thailand to LA and rails them only as far as Chicago for distribution there. The containers that come in to NYC from Thailand take the same amount of time on an all water routing.

Point of the story: Land Bridge is becoming desirable only to lower priority products.

[Steamtown Observer]

Yes. Again I don't know the exact terms of the lease, but I doubt NS would cut their own throats on using this line if the need arose. Since the lease has begun there have been at least 2 or 3 occasions that NS trains detoured over the line due to problems on their Penn Route.

Look at the western end of the Southern Tier. NS regularly runs trains over the Western NY & PA RR. I would assume the CNY lease would have similar provisions.

As someone mentioned before, this is actually a brilliant strategy for NS. Lease these lines (WNY&P, CNY/NYS&W), let them get government money to fix them up (often to track conditions that the amount of traffic doesn't justify - but hey it's only taxpayers money!), then run NS trains over them without the headaches of maintenance for the relatively low density of traffic. From an economic point of view neither of these lines can justify being brought up to FRA Class 3 (or better) conditions, but no one seems to care if the money is being given to "small" shortlines, both of which have been very well connected to NY State politics. Aside from Walter's famous lobbying, don't forget the WNY&P/LA&L folks ran a campaign train for Pataki the last time he ran.

[SecaucusJunction]

I also work for an import company. We land bridge across the United States as well as go through the canal. From what I've seen, its easier and faster to land bridge the product across the United States than run it through the canal. Nonetheless, there are advantages for each depending on product and locations.

I also think this is a good idea for NS. My thoughts were that NS is having other people fix up the lines at the cost of the state so that they could use it later on. With all this new traffic on the Penn Route and Port Authority around 2010 or so, this would be a good time to utilize a route that has been brought up to 40mph standards over the entire route with a new signal system.

[cjvrr]

Kind of straying off topic, but I am curious since two of the repondants in the thread work for shipping companies. I though the new large ships being built for container traffic and oil shipments were too large for the Panama Canal. This is one of the reasons was it Wisconsin Central (?) got into the railroad business in Panama to promote a land bridge for container ships there.

I also don't know the capacity of the western US ports but I would assume they will be attempting to increase capacity too to keep up with demand.

[washingtonsecondary]

The newer container ships are too large for the canal (Pana-Max Ships) however the canal is being expanded with a new set of locks to keep up with these ships.

All over your seeing expansion for container traffic. NS/CSX/CR are expanding the Lehigh Line to a double track, there is talk of someday extending that all the way to Easton (a long ways off though) plus the port expansions here on the east coast. The container yards are always adding more cranes to increase load capacity. Its is the side effect to the growing demand of imports.

Even though I work for an import company, I am still worried about our increasing dependence on China for our goods. It worries me that some day they can pull the plug and we'd be really screwed.

[RichM]

Just a slight correction... panamax means it's the largest thing that can fit through the canal, post-panamaxs don't fit.
The better answer is, it depends. The post panamax container ships are faster, but draw more water, so the Asian loading ports as well as the North American discharge ports are limited.
Some steamship companies run round the world voyages with smaller ships, some break-over and reload in various places.
It's generally almost always cheaper to move the container by sea than by land, especially if it stays with the same shipping company.
But it all depends on what rates are negotiated between the shipper and the carrier. And how many containers and how regular the requirement is, as well as how fast customs clearnace can be arranged, etc.
Canal space is also sometimes at a premium, that's why the railroad was rebuilt as well as the crude pipeline there. The larger carriers book passage times well in advance and aren't delayed very much, but like the MN part of the NE corridor, if they lose their slot, they can be pushed back pretty far.
Sorry for the ramble, but this is an everyday thing for me.

[RichM]

Further to my unending ramble, but to bring this back on topic: The Asian carriers without East Coast terminal operations in the beginning typically relied on land bridge operations, the global carriers would not. That's why, with the exception of SeaLand, so much of the NYS&W double-stack traffic was Hanjin, APL, etc.: they didn't have steamship terminals on the east coast. Likewise, the former P&O Nedlloyd operatons management believed they were more economical running through the canal.
Now, with mergers and consolidations, it's a mixed bag, depending on destination, cargo value, etc. But there are many new container ships now in trans-Pacific routes that are post-panamax size, so it's resaonable to expect that both land-bridge and seaborne cargo to the east coast will continue to grow. The tier may come back in importance.

[SecaucusJunction]

Has traffic grown at all since these two took over Conrail? I think there seems to be more trucks on the road than ever.

[washingtonsecondary]

Traffic is up. New trains were added on both CSX and NS. I don't know all their symbols, but several on both sides have been added in the last few years.

[SecaucusJunction]

Unfortunately for freight trains, the traffic on NJT is up too. The nightly window at Port Jervis went from about 4.5 hours a few years back to an hour and twenty minutes today. Would be hard to run a good amount of freight trains on the line with the infrastructure they have today.