Railroad Forums 

  • Book: Railroaded in Cooperstown: A "True" Story

  • Discussion related to New York, Susquehanna & Western operations past and present. Also includes some discussion related to Deleware Otsego owned and operated shortlines. Official web site can be found here: NYSW.COM.
Discussion related to New York, Susquehanna & Western operations past and present. Also includes some discussion related to Deleware Otsego owned and operated shortlines. Official web site can be found here: NYSW.COM.

Moderators: GOLDEN-ARM, NJ Vike

 #333309  by RichM
 
Steamtown, I think your points are answered by Chris and Golden-Arm.

The branches failed because customers went away. DO in most cases assumed operations to try to offer a lower-cost method, often with subsidy, to keep these lines operational to stem the flow of jobs.

Not a bad policy, but when it's not coupled to determining the cause of the business migration, that's not the operator's fault.

As far as the Utica branch, it's the same issue. The railroad isn't an amusement park. If the state and counties do little to attract or preserve their manufacturing, what sense does it make to maintain 50-75 miles of track?

But I'm still interested in reading the book!

 #333334  by Steamtown Observer
 
Yes, but why did the customers all go away? When the old Soviet Union would not grow enough wheat to feed its people they claimed it was because of the "unusually bad weather" - even though Russia had been the bread basket of Europe for over 500 years!

I look at some other NY, PA and NJ shortlines that have had the same kind of economic setbacks, yet they have toughed it out, found new customers, worked with local economic authorities to keep current customers, and stayed in business. I think one can only provide so much bad, unreliable service and stay in business. Justifying an 85% failure rate doesn't cut it.

 #333374  by cjvrr
 
The LASB, FJ&G, CNY (original one), CACV, and the stillborn Kingston Terminal all have come and gone
S-O,

I typically agree with you but not on this. Most of those lines cited only had one or two customers when the DO took over. And most of those businesses were on their last legs.

The LASB did not go under with the NYS&W they lost the contract to run it. When Moore Forms closed the traffic on the line went to a handful of cars per year. I don't have much knowledge on the FJ&G or the CNY but they went under soon after the DO took them over and only had a few customers each. The CACV only had one or two customers too. This was run by the DO almost at the beginning but it too lost customers which shipped in lumber and grain I believe. They made up some by running passenger trains. It is still in place too, but run by the new CACV which runs passengers and gets an occasional carload of freight at the Cooperstown Junction interchange.

The writing was on the wall for the Rahway Valley, again the manufacturing companies along that line slowly died and nothing reoccupied those same locations. When P&G stopped shipping on Staten Island that also hurt the line.

Even the NYS&W has suffered the same fate. Garden State paper, Marcal paper and others have slowly but continually gone under or moved their operations out of state. I seriously doubt the NYS&W's service or pricing was the "sole" reason for those closures. And since the NY&SW goes through a much more populated area and covers more distance the NYS&W has been able to find other business such as the construction debris market to keep the losses at bay. They have also been able to pick up a few customers in Sparta and have grown that area to a nice little transload facility. Perhaps if the construction debris or garbage transfer market had booned 15 years ago, the RV could have been saved.

How many "one customer" shortlines have died in the last 20-30 years? It too may be near the 85% mark.

 #333376  by RichM
 
OK, I'm game, and I'm not intending to flame... who?

Who runs the route miles and has the diversity of service on low-density lines, and the unfavorable public investment climate?

I would agree that R&N and the folks out of Scranton are doing well. But Pennsylvania is subsidizing the heck out of their maintenance upgrades as well as pushing tax concessions for businesses in their areas. At least in the case of R&N, they have negotiated run-throughs, as does WNY. And PA doesn't tax the railroads at the same rates NY and NJ do for real estate.

NYS&W in NJ is doing well, transfill locations are going well, etc.

In my mind, it all comes back to the State of New York. And maybe that's why it's necessary to stay politically connected.

 #333759  by Noel Weaver
 
I became involved both financially and as a volunteer occasionally when
the DO got involved in the Cooperstown Branch of the Delaware & Hudson
in 1970/1971. At that time, there was one customer in Milford (Agway)
and two in Cooperstown (Agway and Bruce Hall). The Otsego County
area still had some farming and other business that was conductive to
railroad transportation but it was fading fast. Eventually, the DO took over
the stock of the Cooperstown and Charlotte Valley and in turn purchased
the branch from the D & H. I rode the first CACV train up there with the
steam engine and all of the DO's passenger cars and it was a festive day.
Reality set in really quick when they started operating the line using a
steam locomotive for both their freight train which at the time was running
two days a week and their passenger train that was operating nearly on a
daily basis. I made many a trip with the crew down to Cooperstown Jct.
to exchange cars with the D & H and these trips often were difficult and
expensive to accomplish for the amount of business that was available.
It didn't take long before a D & H RS-2 to arrive on the scene even with a
working steam generator.
Reduced farming in Otsego County resulted in reduced sales at Agway
which finally closed down completely in Milford and cut way back on rail
use in Cooperstown while Bruce Hall was also not using the railroad nearly
as much as they once were.
CACV certainally tried as much as possible to build up their business and
for a while they were doing fairly well, they purchased a few all door box
cars for lumber and built a siding for a lumber yard at Portlandville for
these cars, this business held on for a while but again, less and less
demand for lumber dried up this business too.
Can Walter Rich be blamed for this loss of business? I think not but rather
he can be credited for keeping this line in operation far beyond what it
would have been had the line stayed with the D & H only to be abandoned
not too far past 1971. The same applies to the line to Richfield Springs,
they tried for some time to keep this one running too but again, decline in
the need for rail freight service finally caught up here too.
FJ&G is another case of the business simply no longer being there for
them and thus the line was no longer profitable even for a short/short
line operation. The tax structure for railroad property in New York State
has not helped any of these lines either.
So far as the Susquehanna is concerned, there is NO doubt that Walter
Rich saved this operation. If anyone had seen this dreadful mess in 1980,
they would have said, "bring on the scrap train", "there is no hope". Then
in 1986, to see double stack container trains operating with multiple units
on the head end and a long consist behind, WOW, on a line that had been
morbid for a long time. A miracle come true. I paced in my car many a
train westbound in the early months of this operation and was always
amazed, a line that had trees growing through the track not a year earlier
was again doing what the builders of it intended, move freight.
Yes, I know the few remaining employees of the Susquehanna lost their
basic union conditions and ended up with pay cuts etc but they still had a
job and a whole lot more security with their job than they had previously.
The towns that the NYS&W pass through in New Jersey were not very
happy about the stack pack trains passing through their communities
either but finally I think they saw the light that it was better to have long
trains running over a railroad that was solvent and paying taxes then to
have a railroad that was falling apart, broke and paying no taxes because
it was bankrupt.
Yes, I remember the derailments, a fair number of them, I remember a
bad one in Franklin, NJ on the former L&HR when they lost a good number
of stack packs and it took a while to clean up. Walter was there on the
scene and clearly upset but he did not give up. He got financing to do the
necessary track work to improve the operation and saw it through.
Maybe if some of the other railroad leaders in New York State had been a
little bit more diplomatic with the politicians, the whole railroad industry in
New York State would have been better off.
I am on Walter's side and I don't think some of you are being at all fair
with him and I came out of the ranks on the railroad and was in the ranks
for a long time. Sorry that this is so long but I just needed to get this off
my chest, thanks for reading it.
Noel Weaver

 #334316  by GOLDEN-ARM
 
And let's not forget that the RVRR and SIRY were also D.O. properties when they failed! Maybe these lines would have failed anyway but this is hardly the vision of a successful shortline holding company.
Yeah, and they were booming, prosperous roads, teeming with online customers. I worked for both of these roads, one of them, Pre-Walter. They were dead, long before Walter took over operations. The electric bill, to raise, and lower the AK span, was more money a month, than the dwindling service at P&G, or the brickyard made, with the fuel of the loco, and crew wages added. How did Walter take control of them? Perhaps they were bankrupt, and after years of trying to make any profit, at all, they were given up, by their previous owners? I know that while on the RVRR, EVERY single trip, resulted in a derailment. Some small, and easily remedied by us, the crew, others that took up to a week, to clean up. Maybe they would have failed? The only thing those roads didn't get from their previous owners, was a funeral. They were dead, and to this day, still are. See what a great job, the M&E has done, in providing important, needed service? Me neither. Every road Walter acquired, was a dead road. They had been bankrupted, and were being abandoned by their owners. He coaxed a few last gasps, from some, others perished quicker, but they were already terminal patients, anyway. Instead of bashing the man, why not thank him, for keeping the "Q" alive, as long as he's done.
BTW, the NYS&W was, and still is a BLE property. The last 4 guys, from the "old" Suzy, became the top 4 guys, on the new, "larger" roster, of the Southern Division, and the Northern Division was where out GC lived, and worked. It was tough going, in the beginning, but Walter took a path through the weeds, and a trail through the woods, and created a railroad, that gave CSX a foothold, in the NJ/NYC market, to the exclusion of Conrail. No railroad has control, over the loss of customers, due to economics, or social and/or market changes. He did what he could, when he could. I have lamented the passing, and removal of some of the roads he owned, or operated, but he gave it a good showing, and lost only what was really, already dead. Regards :(

 #339271  by RichM
 
Thanks Slim, I haven't heard the class warfare stuff enough since election day. Glad to see you're still feeling the holiday spirit.
Just to confirm, making money is bad, right?
 #339322  by hoggerslim
 
No problem Rich. I am in the Christmas spirit. I didnt mean to flashback to election time, but Ive always said if the shoe fits....
The problem is, people cant handle the truth.
 #339594  by Noel Weaver
 
hoggerslim wrote:No problem Rich. I am in the Christmas spirit. I didnt mean to flashback to election time, but Ive always said if the shoe fits....
The problem is, people cant handle the truth.
You are speaking the truth? I don't think you are, you are following the
text of a book that was produced by somebody with an ax to grind.
Walter gave everybody a fair shake in my opinion. I invested some
money with him in the early 1970's and even when the company was sold
off to Walter Rich financed by NS and CSX, Walter made sure that his
financial supporters (stockholders) got a fair shake out of the deal. That
was a lot better than the share holders of Penn Central or some of the
other railroads that went broke got out of their broken corporations.
Walter did not succeed in every venture but in every case, he tried his
best.
Noel Weaver

 #339736  by RichM
 
Well, I just got word from Amazon that I should expect the book in March, so I finally cancelled the order and took the advice offered by several of you and contacted Larry's Trains.

Now I'm feeling even worse, because I hadn't realized that it's the same Larry who operated out of the caboose in Midland Park for the past several years. Should have gone there four months ago...

Anyway, I still believe that without Walter Rich's ability to raise money, the NYS&W would be another NYO&W. But I'll read Barney Fife's book and reserve judgement... maybe...
 #341321  by hoggerslim
 
Im not arguing that he did an excellent job raising money, and I certainly didnt say he didnt give anyone a fair shake at one point or another.
Noel, just because you as an individual did not have a bad experience with the man does not mean he is incapable of doing the things he is accused of in the book. I know people who know "Barney Fife" personally that say that he is a wonderful person. So which one of us is on the wrong side?
Rich, let us know what you think after reading. (I think you'll find that "Barney" would have to have quite an imagination and quite an "axe to grind" to "make up" the stuff he wrote.)

 #341542  by L&HR C&S
 
I alreay have read the book and found it interesting. I have been around this railroad since I graduated HS (a long time ago), and find that a lot of the things mentioned in the book jive with talk within the rank and file in the mid 80's. (as to Charette's involvement in Poolville, the drugs, running down the farmer's cows and being one of Walter's Golden Boys.) Talk back then was that the accident was covered up, and the accident report filed on the FRA website for Poolville just lists car hit train, 2 dead, 1 injured, nothing mentioned about the fact that they blew through the stop and proceed crossing and hit the car. These are just some of the things you would hear from time to time back then.

 #341612  by RichM
 
Aw come on, let me read the book first!
 #344400  by hoggerslim
 
What? Did Noel all of a sudden vanish? Now there is someone else who heard these things long before a book was published. Hmmmmm.................
 #344518  by Noel Weaver
 
hoggerslim wrote:What? Did Noel all of a sudden vanish? Now there is someone else who heard these things long before a book was published. Hmmmmm.................
I have not vanished. Sometimes a subject reaches a point where I just
don't want to participate or be bothered with it anymore. Enjoy this stuff
if you like but without me at least at present.
Noel Weaver