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  • Why not contract to operate passenger trains?

  • Discussion relating to the NS operations. Official web site can be found here: NSCORP.COM.
Discussion relating to the NS operations. Official web site can be found here: NSCORP.COM.
 #958776  by SouthernRailway
 
I see that various commuter railroads in the US contract out their operations to Amtrak or to private operators, and I believe (perhaps wrongly) that BNSF, for example, operates some commuter trains.

Why isn't Norfolk Southern taking part in this?

I wouldn't expect a big profit from receiving a contract to operate a passenger train for a commuter railroad, but a small profit is better than no profit, in many cases.

If I ran a railroad, and there were commuter trains (and various other intercity passenger trains) on my tracks, I'd want to run them, in part to have control over their operations and in part to try to make at least some money, even if minor.

I'd love to see Norfolk Southern running the Piedmont trains in North Carolina, for example.
 #959149  by MEC407
 
Perhaps NS has bid on some contracts but wasn't the lowest bidder. As an example, Pan Am has bid on MBTA commuter rail contracts a few times in recent history, but they weren't the lowest bidder so they weren't chosen.

CSX operates certain MARC trains, and BNSF operates certain Metra trains, so you're correct that some freight railroads are interested in this type of business and (presumably) are able to profit from it.
 #959272  by Gadfly
 
The bottom line is, the freight railroads are NOT interested in running passenger trains no matter what a small number of foamers would wish. They do what they must to appease the political factions and keep their own profit margin as high as possible---which does not include cluttering up the lines with passenger trains. As much as possible, they are RID of them and will do whatever they can to KEEP passenger traffic from fouling up the works! That is just the way it is.

GF
 #959329  by SouthernRailway
 
Gadfly wrote:The bottom line is, the freight railroads are NOT interested in running passenger trains no matter what a small number of foamers would wish. They do what they must to appease the political factions and keep their own profit margin as high as possible---which does not include cluttering up the lines with passenger trains. As much as possible, they are RID of them and will do whatever they can to KEEP passenger traffic from fouling up the works! That is just the way it is.

GF
Plenty do though- they don't run them under their own name, but under contract to a commuter railroad or the like. Running one's own passenger train would be a recipe for financial disaster, but being paid by a commuter railroad to operate one for the commuter railroad should add at least a little profit to the bottom line.
 #959531  by Gadfly
 
SouthernRailway wrote:
Gadfly wrote:The bottom line is, the freight railroads are NOT interested in running passenger trains no matter what a small number of foamers would wish. They do what they must to appease the political factions and keep their own profit margin as high as possible---which does not include cluttering up the lines with passenger trains. As much as possible, they are RID of them and will do whatever they can to KEEP passenger traffic from fouling up the works! That is just the way it is.

GF
Plenty do though- they don't run them under their own name, but under contract to a commuter railroad or the like. Running one's own passenger train would be a recipe for financial disaster, but being paid by a commuter railroad to operate one for the commuter railroad should add at least a little profit to the bottom line.
Which leads us back to where we started: It is what Amtrak is about. Southern, for example, would not join Amtrak in 1971 for several reasons. One of those reasons was, most roads were BEGGING Amtrak to TAKE the passenger trains off their hands. Southern was NOT, tho they certainly would like nothing better than to be rid of them. Amtrak was dealing from a false position of strength and presumed that they would foul up Southern's lines with passenger trains, and gum up the Rat Hole Divison with their junky trains. Southern was cash-rich, stubborn, and not intimidated by them damn yankees that didn't know how to run a railroad to start with. When SR found what they were up to, I believe it was Mr Claytor that told Amtrak, in no uncertain terms, to go to H--- and to do some other physically impossible things to themselves: They'd run the Southern Crescent for FREE before Amtrak would tell them what to do!!!!!!!! The Crescent lasted until '79: I know......I was aboard Engine 6908, Train #2 the last Saturday night it ran under the Southern banner.

It may be that, due to political pressures, logistical situations, the freight railroads might have to deal with passenger trains on a limited basis. The fact remains, they do NOT want them. Two Southern Railway "alumni" went on to do good things in the rail industry: Mr L. Stanly Crane (under whom I was hired in the late 70's) went on to whip Conrail into a railroad property worth its salt and show them yankees :) how to run a railroad, Mr Claytor to Amtrak and as Sec'ry of the Navy.
They both would tell you today, if they were alive, that passenger trains are a losing proposition. :)

GF
 #959595  by RDGTRANSMUSEUM
 
Wait till the govermnment uses putting passenger trains back on the freight railroads as leverage by withholding money like the current 97 and 100 Million dollar intermodal yards the NS is building with mostly OPM (other peoples money.) look it up.
 #959616  by SouthernRailway
 
Gadfly wrote:passenger trains are a losing proposition. :)
GF
What fascinating stories about the Southern Crescent- I'd definitely like to hear more some time! That was the first train I ever took, all the way to Route 128 in the mid-'70s.

Maybe we're talking past each other? If I were Norfolk Southern, I'd definitely not run my own passenger trains for my own profit and loss. I'm not talking about running another intercity train as a Norfolk Southern train.

Rather, I'm talking about bidding on a contract issued by a commuter railroad or the like by which the commuter railroad pays a private operator cash to staff and run the commuter railroad's passenger trains, like CSX apparently does for Virginia Railway Express. The MBTA in Boston also contracts its trains out to for-profit operators. The risk of any losses, as far as I know, is not on the private operator; it's on the commuter railroad.

There are plenty of Norfolk Southern routes used by commuter trains and the like- including some NJ Transit lines and parts of the Piedmont route in North Carolina. It might be a tough battle, but I'd think that Norfolk Southern could approach NJ Transit and the NCDOT and say, "pay us $x and we'll staff and operate your commuter trains for you, using your equipment and under your logo, for less than you're spending now."
 #959629  by MEC407
 
Like I said before, it's possible that NS has bid on these contracts and simply wasn't the lowest bidder. Quite honestly I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case. Lots of companies bid on these contracts, but they can't all win...
 #959634  by SouthernRailway
 
MEC407 wrote:Like I said before, it's possible that NS has bid on these contracts and simply wasn't the lowest bidder. Quite honestly I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case. Lots of companies bid on these contracts, but they can't all win...
Good point. As long as NS is trying, I'm happy! Thanks for the answer.
 #959748  by D.Carleton
 
The bottom line is... well... the bottom line. In the book Waiting on a Train from 2009 the author interviewed many people from the Class One railroads. One of these from NS did say, at the time, they were looking into bidding on the operation of the passenger trains on their railroad on a contract basis. So, armed with this knowledge, I asked the NS CEO about this during the Q&A period at last year's 'Passenger Trains on Freight Railroads' conference. He said they did look into it and after crunching the numbers decided the reward was not worth the risk. I do not see the risk going away anytime soon so it's a question of raising the reward.
 #959772  by Gadfly
 
SouthernRailway wrote:
Gadfly wrote:passenger trains are a losing proposition. :)
GF
What fascinating stories about the Southern Crescent- I'd definitely like to hear more some time! That was the first train I ever took, all the way to Route 128 in the mid-'70s.

Maybe we're talking past each other? If I were Norfolk Southern, I'd definitely not run my own passenger trains for my own profit and loss. I'm not talking about running another intercity train as a Norfolk Southern train.

Rather, I'm talking about bidding on a contract issued by a commuter railroad or the like by which the commuter railroad pays a private operator cash to staff and run the commuter railroad's passenger trains, like CSX apparently does for Virginia Railway Express. The MBTA in Boston also contracts its trains out to for-profit operators. The risk of any losses, as far as I know, is not on the private operator; it's on the commuter railroad.

There are plenty of Norfolk Southern routes used by commuter trains and the like- including some NJ Transit lines and parts of the Piedmont route in North Carolina. It might be a tough battle, but I'd think that Norfolk Southern could approach NJ Transit and the NCDOT and say, "pay us $x and we'll staff and operate your commuter trains for you, using your equipment and under your logo, for less than you're spending now."

Thanks. It's just that I *lived* it and was fortunate enough to be a part of what was a tough, but interesting railroad which, of course, survives today in partnership with NW. We know it as Norfolk Southern. Part of that career was within NS and it became much more brutal and hard-nosed as it progressed. I worked under people who got their tails chewed raw by DW Brosnan! And Brosnan's hand (or influence) was still clearly there even in the early 80's with people like John Stubbs, Superintendent, Maintenance Equipment. I found Southern's discipline to be strict, familarly militaristic, but fair. So long as you did your work, stayed busy, produced results, you would never hear a word out of him. Yet, you just knew by his demeanor that he meant what he said, and that he'd "gitcha" if you messed up.
Part of a very diversified career was spend at Southern's Roadway Shops where many innovations in track technology were developed. it was nothing to see men like Mr Jack Parks (another Brosnan prodigy) down on their knees with lumber chalk drawing out diagrams for track machines. This occurred in the back shop floor where they experimented with automation and changes to Tampers, Track Brooms, Ballast Regulators. They would set barrels around these "works of art" and woe be unto anyone who happened to drive over one with a fork lift or tow tractor!!! They'd try a new thing, and if it didn't work, they went back to their knees, in the backshop floor, and tried something else. Parks knew track machines like the back of his hand! He was a walking encyclopedia of track machine technology and was part of the original team that developed many of the track machine improvements that were developed in the 50's-60's era. I knew most of those guys. And was SCARED of most of them! :) Jack really got on me one time, but it was more irritation about something that was going wrong, not really something that *I* had done. But that's another story....................................................................

The Crescent was part of my early career. One of the nice things was "trip passes". I didn't have enough time in for a permanent pass, but I could ask my supervisor for a trip pass and go anywhere on the Crescent route for free. So my wife and I would go up to Washington, DC, catching the train in Gastonia, NC and spend days sightseeing. All it cost us was food and incidentals, bedroom extra. Half the time, and if a "strange" trainmaster wasn't on board, the conductor would ignore me and not even ask for my pass: after all, they knew I was an employee so why bother. Sometimes I would go all the way up to the engines into the cab and ride over my Division.

The point of all this is, yeah, it was fun, interesting, and I was able to arrive at a time in the industry when I was able to experience a dying part of railroading: passenger trains. In that twilight, I handed up orders, handled baggage, rode the trains, ate in the dining car with crisp linens and fancy china, saw dignified waiters with towels over their arms, rode in sparkling green 'n gold E8's (just a big Chevy really), held my ears as I walked thru the engine rooms (LOUD at 79 MPH!). And I wouldn't take anything for the experiences. But passenger trains, along with those memories, are DEAD. You can FORCE anything into being if you want it bad enough, but is it REALLY worth the effort? Is it that a few of us think that passenger trains, except for the highly populated northeast corridor, are truly needed? OR is it actually what I think it is: the irrational love of trains that would have us run almost empty trains over long distances simply so a foamer can stand out there and watch 'em by? People don't RIDE trains in sufficient numbers over long distances to justify them! Local commuter in population-dense areas? YES! They are already doing it. Long distance? NO! it is simply a political football.

Let the freight railroads decide if they want to foul up their lines with passenger. They WON'T so long as they can HELP it. And, btw, Norfolk Southern is by no means "poor"; they do take advantage of "other people's money" if offered. Who wouldn't? But I know NS pretty well, too. They are just as likely to tell the government to go **** themselves, too! They don't NEED anybody's "help"! ;)
 #959959  by SouthernRailway
 
D.Carleton wrote:The bottom line is... well... the bottom line. In the book Waiting on a Train from 2009 the author interviewed many people from the Class One railroads. One of these from NS did say, at the time, they were looking into bidding on the operation of the passenger trains on their railroad on a contract basis. So, armed with this knowledge, I asked the NS CEO about this during the Q&A period at last year's 'Passenger Trains on Freight Railroads' conference. He said they did look into it and after crunching the numbers decided the reward was not worth the risk. I do not see the risk going away anytime soon so it's a question of raising the reward.
Perfect answer- exactly what I was looking for. THANKS.
 #1045616  by rwk
 
Cars and planes killed the trains. People won't give up their personal automobiles that they can run on their schedule, and the time saving plane, which is much faster than a train. People's time is too valuable today. Long distance trains are unprofitable for that reason. People have choices, and most people chose cars and planes. It doesn't help that people have had negative experiences on Amtrak, late trains, poor service, cramped seats, missed connections, and more. Those people said they would never ride Amtrak again. So, Amtrak lost repeat business. It also doesn't help that most states channel their funding into roads and highways, at least my state of PA does. The Conrail/SEPTA commuter routes out of Philly shrunk in 1981 due to poor ridership to Reading, Bethlehem, etc.
 #1045802  by SecaucusJunction
 
rwk wrote:Cars and planes killed the trains. People won't give up their personal automobiles that they can run on their schedule, and the time saving plane, which is much faster than a train. People's time is too valuable today. Long distance trains are unprofitable for that reason. People have choices, and most people chose cars and planes. It doesn't help that people have had negative experiences on Amtrak, late trains, poor service, cramped seats, missed connections, and more. Those people said they would never ride Amtrak again. So, Amtrak lost repeat business. It also doesn't help that most states channel their funding into roads and highways, at least my state of PA does. The Conrail/SEPTA commuter routes out of Philly shrunk in 1981 due to poor ridership to Reading, Bethlehem, etc.


I can't disagree with most things you said, but the other side of it is, Amtrak is breaking ridership records on a yearly basis and they can't keep up with the growth that seems to be going on. I've ridden long distance Amtrak. I don't really understand how they do it, but people seem to like their service. I recently priced a trip halfway across the country on Amtrak with a room. I had to look twice to see if I saw the price right... but if they can get that much from someone, then I guess that's how the free market works...
 #1046962  by newpylong
 
RDGTRANSMUSEUM wrote:Wait till the govermnment uses putting passenger trains back on the freight railroads as leverage by withholding money like the current 97 and 100 Million dollar intermodal yards the NS is building with mostly OPM (other peoples money.) look it up.
This is actually false.

The latest yard they are building in Charlotte: http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/ ... lotte.html
15.7 out of 92 Million from outside funding. That's 17%.

How about Harrisburg expansion? http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/ ... modal.html
15/60.5 Million from outside funding. That's 24%.

How about Mechanicville, closer to home. Norfolk Southern built this entirely with their own funding (40 million) as part of Pan Am Southern (137 million total expenditures to date).

Those are the big ones from this past year.

I would say that is smart business. Get funding from the municipalities that will benefit from the project most and pay for the rest.