• CSX to acquire Pan Am Railways

  • Guilford Rail System changed its name to Pan Am Railways in 2006. Discussion relating to the current operations of the Boston & Maine, the Maine Central, and the Springfield Terminal railroads (as well as the Delaware & Hudson while it was under Guilford control until 1988). Official site can be found here: PANAMRAILWAYS.COM.
Guilford Rail System changed its name to Pan Am Railways in 2006. Discussion relating to the current operations of the Boston & Maine, the Maine Central, and the Springfield Terminal railroads (as well as the Delaware & Hudson while it was under Guilford control until 1988). Official site can be found here: PANAMRAILWAYS.COM.

Moderator: MEC407

  • 1193 posts
  • 1
  • 59
  • 60
  • 61
  • 62
  • 63
  • 80
  by newpylong
 
What little tealeaves I have been able to shake until now are saying any notion of an NS/CSX/Conrail transaction is a scam rumor.

The richest part of this story is stating that NS will receive access to the Boston Line. That is a joke in and of itself.
  by bostontrainguy
 
So what exactly does this mean?

Rail Transportation in Massachusetts
Massachusetts General Law, Chapter 161C, Section 7 states that all railroad property offered for sale must first be submitted to the Massachusetts Department of Transportation.


Would any buyer have to wait until Massachusetts makes up its mind before any sale can happen? Let's assume that Pan Am has notified the State. How long do they have to wait to allow the State to decide? The Commonwealth could hold this whole thing up for quite a while, yes, no, maybe?
  by Safetee
 
the original deal in mass was that in the case of any rail lines that were abandoned in mass, if they were to be put up for sale they had to be offered first to the eotc which was the mass dot predecessor.

in the case of the new mass dot regulations, I believe that if a carrier wanted to sell an operating line completely within the comm of mass, say just the worcester main line, then perhaps the state might be able to make the case for the right of first refusal.

but in the case of the sale of an entire interstate railroad operation, such as pan am is offering from northern maine all the way through massachusetts to rotterdam jct. ny, i feel that the new mass law would not apply because it would be construed as being interference with interstate commerce.
  by mrj1981
 
newpylong wrote:What little tealeaves I have been able to shake until now are saying any notion of an NS/CSX/Conrail transaction is a scam rumor.

The richest part of this story is stating that NS will receive access to the Boston Line. That is a joke in and of itself.
I totally agree. Even if there is some discussion between CSX and NS about somehow splitting this baby, it seems to me much more logical for NS to buy out the PAR share of PAS, and then for NS-CSX to jointly buy everything east of the Willows and add it to the Conrail venture. The details reported in the article just don't seem to make sense, for a variety of reasons, and to me smack of someone struggling to piece together a story based on snippets heard from people who aren't really in the "know".

And also - at the risk of stating the obvious - EVEN IF CSX and NS were discussing some sort of venture, that doesn't guarantee them to be high bidder. I.e., everything reported in that article could be true - and Fortress or Brookfield or <fill in the blank other firm> could still outbid them.
  by CN9634
 
I am hearing the same. Worlds Greatest Railfan strikes again! Hopefully this one sinks ANR&P and their “reporting”, not sure how you can be an industry publication that relies on rumors without any basis in fact (did I just call them Fake News?)
  by bostontrainguy
 
Safetee wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:20 am . . . but in the case of the sale of an entire interstate railroad operation, such as pan am is offering from northern maine all the way through massachusetts to rotterdam jct. ny, i feel that the new mass law would not apply because it would be construed as being interference with interstate commerce.
Well that just might kill the split idea!
  by newpylong
 
I think I should have clarified on my comments regarding a "split". I mean, I still think there will be a PAS (successor) and PAR (successor) split as there is now. IE, NS is not going to give up their share of PAS, nor are they going to purchase the remainder of the system. So, regardless of the sale outcome, NS is not going anywhere and whoever buys Pan Am Railways will likely be the common carrier for both PAS and PAR as the ST is now. There however will remain a different railroad (joint venture) where PAS is now. NS would either need to buck up and buy PAR or back out of PAS entirely for the defacto split to go away.
Last edited by newpylong on Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by bostontrainguy
 
mrj1981 wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:25 am And also - at the risk of stating the obvious - EVEN IF CSX and NS were discussing some sort of venture, that doesn't guarantee them to be high bidder. I.e., everything reported in that article could be true - and Fortress or Brookfield or <fill in the blank other firm> could still outbid them.
Except this is a private sale and not a public bid. Pan Am can sell it to anyone they want. Total price may not be as important as some other aspect of the sale or just could be based on personalities where Mellon might really like the people at NS and not the people at ABC financial group.
  by mrj1981
 
BTG, I absolutely agree with your point above. I was merely trying to point out that there is a big difference between NS-CSX discussing and negotiating the idea of making a bid together on the one hand, and that bid being successful and winning the day on the other hand (the article seemed to equate those two things - wrongly, in my view). I agree with you that there are any number of considerations other than just price that may enter the equation for Mellon (can a given group really obtain the necessary financing, chances of getting the deal approved by the STB, whether or not Mellon likes or dislikes a given party on a personal level, etc.)
Last edited by MEC407 on Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total. Reason: unnecessary quoting
  by PBMcGinnis
 
ANR&P should change its name to

Another
Nutty
Railfan
Prediction

Oh - and all those still thinking there is a gonna be a split....
Don't forget to both exhale and inhale again.

PS: Please send a box of cigarettes to my address at the Danbury Federal Pen.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Enquiring mind wants to know, but why hasn't recognized media - general circulation or railroad trade - picked up on these "stories" being circulated by this ANR&P publication?

If there was any foundation to the stories, I'd think a "Shared Assets" extending far beyond a terminal area, proposal would be "huge" - enough to be front page in The Wall Street Journal, and same for the New York Times Business section.
  by NHV 669
 
Mr. Norman, the author of this article, which I finally read this morning, happens to be the same fellow who sent me a PM some months back, asking to possibly source me for a comment I made about LPG traffic on the SLR being affected by the CMQ sale to CP. I, like you, am merely a student still learning the ways of what comes and goes in the cars on the rails up these ways in 2020, since the closest local outfit (and customers) have been gone roughly 2/3 of my lifetime (thanks Clyde!).

I posed a question completely ignorant of the actual movement of the cars, yet here comes a PM for a possible news byte. At this point, this "story" isn't worth its weight in Grafton County's finest local manure.
  by shadyjay
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:29 am Mr. Newpy, wasn't the MEC line through Crawford Notch sold to a tourist line? If so, hasn't that line effectively been truncated?

I can recall from Camp days returning from a Mt. Washington hike (Tuckerman Ravine Trail for you mountaineers around here) and "a train" was descending that very steep line, as was the highway as well.

Get to St. Johnsbury by whatever means such as tracking over the tourist line, and so far as I know, the interchange there with the St Johnsbury and Lamoille County is gone as that road no longer exists.

So I guess I wonder why is it being discussed here, other just "vamp" until some kind of decision on the Sale is announced.
I recently read that Guilford held onto the rights for thru freight traffic through the Notch (the state of New Hampshire does own the Mountain Division from the ME state line up to Hazens). Couple that with the fact that (someone) still owns the St J to Whitefield track, and it adds an interesting question into the PAR sale quotient.

I'm not disagreeing that it is highly unlikely that thru freight service would return to the Notch, especially given the fact that most of the track in Maine is "out of service" (for a long time now), and the lack of traffic. But if a railroad thought they could make it work, then you never know. Heck, if someone said to you 20, 25 years ago that CP would return to VT and ME, and take over the old Bangor & Aroostook, would you have believed them? If they didn't buy the CM&Q, but still wanted to access an Atlantic port, they could've bought down to St J, then the Mountain Division, but there would really have to be something they really really wanted in Portland in order to deal with sinking $$$ into it and maintenance. If CN wanted Portland access, they could take the St Lawrence & Atlantic back. Who knows what will happen in this world, as there was "talk" of them wanting the CV back.

Still, I'm not camping out on Mt Willard to await the passage of RJ-1 anytime soon, but, Mr Norman, I'll camp at Dolly Copp again and hike Tuck's like I did this summer, though I still prefer hiking from the Cog side.

"And so... we wait"
  by NHV 669
 
Jay,

NHDOT owns it to the state line at Route 135/Dalton/Lunenburg. Interestingly enough, they cut the crossing back in when they repaved that section a few years ago. I guess looking at the state maps, Vermont is still out to lunch on who has what.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
shadyjay" wrote:...., Mr Norman, I'll camp at Dolly Copp again and hike Tuck's like I did this summer, though I still prefer hiking from the Cog side.

"And so... we wait"
Mr. Hogan, I'm not your age; one thing to do it when I was 12yo (and get caught in 75mph winds descending the Ravine - the Councilors were even scared), but not @ 79.

As I recall there is a trail. the Annamoosic, thst largely follows the Cog Railway (rode that during a Parent's Weekend; Mom and Dad do the popping, not the Camp).

So much for mountaineering (if Mr. Maine Central 407 allows this to stand), now back to the rails - and the Sale which will be announced when it's announced.
  • 1
  • 59
  • 60
  • 61
  • 62
  • 63
  • 80