• Pan Am Railways For Sale?

  • Guilford Rail System changed its name to Pan Am Railways in 2006. Discussion relating to the current operations of the Boston & Maine, the Maine Central, and the Springfield Terminal railroads (as well as the Delaware & Hudson while it was under Guilford control until 1988). Official site can be found here: PANAMRAILWAYS.COM.
Guilford Rail System changed its name to Pan Am Railways in 2006. Discussion relating to the current operations of the Boston & Maine, the Maine Central, and the Springfield Terminal railroads (as well as the Delaware & Hudson while it was under Guilford control until 1988). Official site can be found here: PANAMRAILWAYS.COM.

Moderator: MEC407

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  by lvrr325
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:00 am

Now I've dug out a PRR System Map on Form 1 and it would appear the (historical roads) routing for the noted traffic would be D&H-Bingo-ERIE-Elmira-PRR-Wms'pt/Enola/H'town-N&W. All those roads noted are now NS.
I saw no follow-up to correct this.

PRR below Elmira has been gone for 40+ years. It didn't even go into Conrail, or if it did it was abandoned very early. Probably some more up to date maps are in order.

NS owns the entire southern half of the D&H, comprised of the former D&H to Binghamton, the 1976 acquired former PRR Sunbury line from Wilkes-Barre, and the 1982-acquired former DL&W main from Binghamton to Scranton, plus some related connecting lines. The DL&W line replaced D&H's own original line to Scranton.

From Wilkes-Barre there are two ways they can go; via former CP/D&H to Sunbury and then Enola or via Dupont, connection to the Lehigh Line, then Allentown and to the former Reading and south. A portion of this route is owned by the Reading & Northern but both CP had and NS has rights on it. I'm sure being low margin the trash goes whatever way has the least expense.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Relevant development to our discussion:

TRAINS Newswire

Fair Use:
CP operates first international intermodal train from Saint John. In a preview of the railroad's future plans, Canadian Pacific operated its first international intermodal train from the Port of Saint John, New Brunswick, today. The train carried containers from the Hapag-Lloyd ship Detroit Express, bound for terminals in Canada and the U.S. The Hapag-Lloyd container ship had diverted to Saint John from its normal route to Montreal, whose port has been sidelined by a dockworker strike four times in the past month. CP is hoping to land regular transatlantic service to the port of Saint John, which is undergoing an expansion.
Apparently a little too much grève des travailleurs at Montreal to have a major "Transat" maritime concern comfortable.

I think it's a case of "and then there were two" - NS and GTC(CN). If this new service "sticks", then the Northern Maine rail shipping community stands to benefit. Could an FRA Class 3 road be on the way?

Now I'm not certain how the regulatory agency, Tansport Canada, holds regarding the need for competition into what could be a major maritime port. If they do, then I think they would want to see some kind of alliance between NS and the Short Lines in Eastern Maine to form a competitive routing.

Lest we forget, CN "owns" Halifax, which may or may not be beneficial to the maritime community. Having a port with competitive rail service might make the maritime companies more comfortable not being at the mercy of one road.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
lvrr325 wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:54 am NS owns the entire southern half of the D&H, comprised of the former D&H to Binghamton, the 1976 acquired former PRR Sunbury line from Wilkes-Barre, and the 1982-acquired former DL&W main from Binghamton to Scranton, plus some related connecting lines. The DL&W line replaced D&H's own original line to Scranton.
Mr. LV, thank you establishing that NS can get from the B&M/PAS to anywhere on the SRY or N&W systems.

I was unaware that the DL&W over Tunkhannock was theirs, and I guess FRA Class 2 or higher. I thought it belonged to a tourist RR, but then when I saw photos and videos of an Amtrak Acela II on the viaduct, I should have been wiser.

Now that I've learned of this "connectivity", and there is, albeit low value garbage, traffic, just one more reason Topper "is on the inside of the home stretch". Get PAS up to FRA Class 3, and there likely will be more - and higher value thsn garbage.
  by gokeefe
 

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Now that I've learned of this "connectivity", and there is, albeit low value garbage, traffic, just one more reason Topper "is on the inside of the home stretch".
Based on recent reports of CP intermodal out of St. John and the desire to avoid Montreal I think Canadian National is probably running close behind in second place ... Not quite "neck and neck" ...

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. O'Keefe, I have no idea what jurisdiction Transport Canada, or any other regulatory agency, has over maritime affairs at the ports, but if they do and hold to the Surf Board's philosophy regarding competition, then I think that nag named CN is "fading".

"Meanwhile back in The States", as an analogy, I still must wonder to what extent the Port of Miami and others in Florida are avoided by the maritime companies in that they have only one railroad - the FEC. I would hope for the interests of all concerned that FEC ensures that Jax is an open gateway and both CSX and NS will have equal treatment with regards to rates and interchanges. If the maritime companies sense any kind of discrimination, all they need do is steam a few hundred miles to the North to ports where both CSX and NS serve (throw in GTC-CN as well if New Orleans).

Thoughts, Mr. Cowford?
  by Cowford
 
Mr Norman - I agree that container lines, BCOs, ports, etc. all would typically prefer multiple terrestrial transport options, but this is just one of many issues to consider in port selection - and I'd argue that it ranks below many others, such as distance from/access to consumption market or distribution center cluster(s) (as we're talking imports), port model/dray/chassis pool capacity/fluidity and costs, etc. East Coast rail market share is relatively small (but growing), so that puts the issue in further perspective. A single-served port can be at a disadvantage if the serving rail carrier had a limited network that precluded market penetration deeper into the hinterland - unless that line can crack a particularly tough nut: Short- to medium-haul interline intermodal lanes.

Prince Rupert is single-line served and it's one of the fastest growing ports on the continent. Miami/southern FL has population, but is a challenge for its location relative to the rest of the Southeast.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Thank you. Mr. Cowford, for choosing to participate at this discussion.

I think we should note that St. John, when compared with Halifax, is a "backwater eddy", presuming 59K TEU's compared with 595K is any kind of measurement. Further, with 20' (IIRC) tides, sailings must be carefully coordinated, but then. Halifax may be confronted with same.

You noted earlier that access to competitive railroads is not the "alpha and omega" I have led myself to believe it is. Possibly, my thoughts were based upon the multitude of "switches" and trackage rights awarded "my MILW" arising from various mergers in a vain effort to keep it alive. Additionally, I'm of course aware of the "plethora" of rights imposed by the "big four" formulation last century.

I guess the question is could two roads with direct routes (yes. I'm aware CN also serves St. John, but apparently circuitous) enhance St. John's tonnage/TEU volume? That would make the case to have a buyer of PA to have a further interest to help develop the Port. That would mean FRA Class 3 trackage (Class 4; dream) and making investment in the Short Line (E'port-St John) to offer a competitive routing to the Midwest. It would also compel The CP to "get serious" about the CP-M - and all shippers in Northern Maine would benefit (so would those motorists trying to get by a logging truck on those "excuses" they have for highways up there).
Last edited by Gilbert B Norman on Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by NS VIA FAN
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:12 pm I think we should note that St. John, when compared with Halifax, is a "backwater eddy", presuming 59K TEU's compared with 595K is any kind of measurement. Further, with 20' (IIRC) tides, sailings must be carefully coordinated, but then. Halifax may be confronted with same
That's Saint John and yes....it's on the Bay Of Fundy and experiences extreme tides. Further up the bay in Minas Basins tides can rise and fall 48 to 52 feet.....arriving as a tidal bore and moving as fast as a person can walk.

Halifax on the other hand....experiences tidal ranges no different than any other port on the east coast of North America.
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:12 pm I'm aware CN also serves St. John, but apparently circuitous) enhance St. John's tonnage/TEU volume? That would make the case to have a buyer of PA to have a further interest to help develop the Port.
Circuitous in the manner that CN's NTR (National Transcontinental Railway) mainline goes up over the very northern tip of Maine. At Estcourt Station...the bottom of the railway embankment is the US/Can Border. That part of Maine gets their power from Hydro-Quebec and the phone at US Customs has a Quebec Area Code!

https://goo.gl/maps/quybuYzjefWrLUNF7

It's about 600 miles from Montreal to Moncton then add another 190 miles to Halifax or 90 miles to Saint John.

The direct mileage across Maine between Montreal and Saint John via CP and NBSR is 480 miles. Guess that's why it was always called the 'Short Line'
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
OK Mr. Hadfield, I'll stand corrected on Saint vice St. Funny though, St. John's NF appears abbreviatrd on the map I reviewed.
  by NS VIA FAN
 
Yes.....it's always St. John's NL it distinguish it from Saint John NB
Last edited by MEC407 on Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total. Reason: unnecessary quoting
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Possibly those tides in Bay of Fundy are a constraint to any expansion of the Port of
SAINT John. Even an ocean going vessel would be hard pressed to make way at any time other than slack. If a vessel sailed with an ebbing tide, best not have any kind of problem with machinery until reaching open water.

I can recall during my Fairfield Navy navigation classes reviewing Tidal Charts where the (figures) last point was Eastport. Therefore I only knew of Bay of Fundy tides by anecdote, but I do recall seeing photos of small fishing vessels at low tide - quite beached.
  by bostontrainguy
 
Latest strongest rumor for what it's worth: Pan Am main line is sold to NS and the branches go to Watco.
  by Cosakita18
 
ALL of the mainline?? Including the MEC to 'Keag?
Last edited by MEC407 on Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total. Reason: unnecessary quoting
  by bostontrainguy
 
I don't know. I was wondering the same thing since Keag is really just a crappy "branch line" at this point. However you can't dismiss the potential as Saint John gets seriously expanded.
  by gokeefe
 
That sounds like a legitimate offer. Who knows if the "price is right".

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Last edited by MEC407 on Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total. Reason: unnecessary quoting
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