CSX-Oak Point/Fremont

[Jeff Smith]

Was this the beer thief?

[AMK0123]

Just saw on another sight that Q430 and Q431 have been abolished. I haven't been able to get trackside and follow this line much in the past few years so, just as a refresher... There are now only one southbound (Q701) and one northbound (Q704) that runs daily. If they have an extra train or rail train are they running as an X7-- or just added onto the Q701/704? Also, the Croton Harmon locals (B749 / B750 (nights) are running the same operations however just out of Oak Point, with the only customers on the Hudson line being Burnwell in Poughkeepsie and the occasional run to Lumber company in Chelsea. As for motive power it still seems to be a SD60m / SD40-2 combo or some arraignment thereof and a pair of GP38-2 as local / yard power?

[gregorygrice]

A couple of corrections:

-B749 no longer exists

-The B750 was relocated to Oak Point years ago.

-Burnwell is no longer a customer. They moved across the river and get more than twice as many cars through M&NJ

-Chelsea Lumber is served by Q704

[AMK0123]

Greg, thanks for the quick response... So, then I assume that the local no longer goes onto the Hudson line unless its to retrieve an outlawed Q701 in Croton or Beacon. When it does so, what train symbol does it run as? Makes sense for Q704 to make the drop in Chelsea instead of running a local 60 plus miles for an occasional boxcar or centerbeam. So, with B749 abolished does that mean the only local, B750 is a night job? And with just one train in both directions does that mean that carloads are down from were they were 5 to 10 years ago? I remember when I used to work evenings in the Cold Spring / Garrison area I would always catch around 9 or 10p.m. the Q702 running northbound. It would often meet with the southbound Q431 in Beacon or Poughkeepsie and the crews would return to there original terminal. That would be followed by the Q701 / Q430 during the middle of the night. That would be almost every M-F, only change would be a combined train on Saturdays running under symbol Q702 and usually have 4 road units heading back to Selkirk. Add that the local (B749) out of croton would be seen several times a week on the upper Hudson line serving Burnwell, Chelsea lumber and a scrap dealer that was located in the old CNE yard just north of Poughkeepsie station, (that was usually good for 6-8 cars at anytime). And don't forget the several times a week CP Rail train (D&H 416/417, if I recall correctly) How times have changed in only a few years...

[Jeff Smith]

A couple of corrections:

-B749 no longer exists

-The B750 was relocated to Oak Point years ago.

-Burnwell is no longer a customer. They moved across the river and get more than twice as many cars through M&NJ

-Chelsea Lumber is served by Q704

If B750 runs out of Oak Point, how does it access the Harlem line? The link was meant to abolish freight below Highbridge, particularly keeping it out of MO. I'm pretty sure MNRR let CSX run the B750 at night across the MO wye, so they'd serve the lumber yard in the Bronx, and the customer in Mt. Vernon, first. Do they just backtrack now up to Highbridge?

[Plate C]

This afternoon, called CSX police as a group was stealing cases of beer from a box car in the yard...in broad daylight. Did CSX police patrols get cut? 20 minutes later, NYPD called me back for more info, so I have no doubt the thieves got away. It looked like a pretty well coordinated theft operation.

Man you were not kidding here. Not an unheard of act in the RR world, but one I got to witness first hand recently. You could see multiple cars were broken open and the scene looked more like looting or gang robbery. If they got away, they got a lot. Surprising thing was, surveying the whole scene, the reactions of the people doing it, etc., this whole thing is completely preventable with minor efforts, and those minor efforts could even be used for further benefit to CSX. I wouldn't call what I saw well coordinated, more like a crime of opportunity, with the criminals very aware of the opportunity.

Re: police, there are definitely good cops out there but having said that, I have overall found the NYPD to be unresponsive to numerous situations that would require immediate attention, so getting no response from them sounds par for the course. And... doubt NYPD is in any rush to run down on those tracks with the numerous inherent dangers, many of which are probably beyond the regualr patrolman's grasp. As for CSX, yes, they cut numerous police positions along with cutting back on just about everything else. Unfortunate from the sense that CSX police are spread quite thin to begin with. I've only had dealings with two CSX officers, but overall nice, dedicated guys. After seeing what happened at OP I googled it and saw that CSX did respond to one of these thefts, with a CSX officer getting hit in the head with a thrown piece of concrete (hope he's OK). Had a similar experience as one of the guys threw a rock or similar at me.

Anyhow, seeing that prompted me to stop in here when I saw the Oak Point thread. Was curious if anyone here has factual (VS assumed) knowledge of how this works. It appears beer and other commodities are arriving in OP for distribution and I have to figure carloads are insured by CSX or the shipper/receiver. The robbed cars are sitting on CSX trackage. So... who covers the cost of all this robbed stuff? CSX eats it? I imagine something has to make up for the lost money for CSX and the customer to continue operating the way they are here.

[Backshophoss]

The carrier is on the hook for any freight that was stolen,damaged in transit,or otherwise "missing". Normally a seal placed on the door where a lock
could hang was all that was needed,bolts,or bolt seals will slow a thief down at best,and slow movement of freight cars doesn't help.
Theft is covered by the insurance carrier the RR uses,as are all other "Cargo Claims". It is not unheard of cutting a hole in the roof,torching off
the door Hardware,or using "Bolt Cutters" to break in to a trailer,container,or boxcar/reefer car.
The spread out RR police staffs try to catch/stop theft as best they can.

[freightguy]

Someone I work with in commuter rail retired from NYPD has a retired NYPD buddy who works for CSX police in the metropolitan region. They do have a large area to cover with limited backup via CSX police. That is certainly a rough area near Oak Point alone for NYPD. I would think theft of beer since the 1970s forward is low on the pecking order. I think Manhattan beer is able to write off some of the breakage and theft from cars. Service is still busy I think NYA still services Brooklyn and of course the Bronx warehouse.

[Plate C]

Gentlemen, thanks much for your responses.

These thieves probably just cut the seals as it appeared they had to open a few cars before finding the ones with the beer in them.

Again, was simply taken aback by the whole scene, quite a sight. CSX police can basically be thought of as a regional force, before EHH there was basically one guy to cover 2-3 states and hundreds of miles of trackage. After EHH came on they got rid of several officers, so they must be spread thinner now.

Guys I saw were common thugs, nothing more or less. Little bit of planning and coordination could clean that problem up quick, better safety/security measures by CSX and the distributor would also help. Nothing against their police either, appears CSX can afford those losses and enough product must be getting through for the warehouse to keep going at that rate.

[gregorygrice]

Gentlemen, thanks much for your responses.

These thieves probably just cut the seals as it appeared they had to open a few cars before finding the ones with the beer in them.

Again, was simply taken aback by the whole scene, quite a sight. CSX police can basically be thought of as a regional force, before EHH there was basically one guy to cover 2-3 states and hundreds of miles of trackage. After EHH came on they got rid of several officers, so they must be spread thinner now.

Guys I saw were common thugs, nothing more or less. Little bit of planning and coordination could clean that problem up quick, better safety/security measures by CSX and the distributor would also help. Nothing against their police either, appears CSX can afford those losses and enough product must be getting through for the warehouse to keep going at that rate.

The lose is extremely minimal which is why bigger railroads don't put much effort into the issue. Manhattan Beer also orders more than what they need so inventor is not affected.

[Backshophoss]

With CSX in "Fire Sale" mode,Could P&W(nee G&W) become the only freight RR on MN tracks,and take over the Garbage train Haulage to Selkirk?
Could we see NY&A Bringing their interchange traffic to Oak Point yard instead of Fremont/Fresh Pond as the interchange point?

[Rockingham Racer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the trash used to go up the Hudson Division, cross the river and come back down on the River Line on its way to somewhere in the South. Florence, SC, perhaps?

[ccutler]

Yes that is the direction though I am not sure all the trash goes to any one dump. There is a dump in upstate NY that I believe gets receives NYC trash by rail. There is also another dump SW of Trenton, in PA, that receives trash, I believe from multiple municipalities. But I am not an expert on the trash industry.

[Backshophoss]

There are multiple Landfills in Ohio that get NY metro area trash,not sure if any are rail served.
That would include Newark,Jersey City area as well,look at how many trash trucks run across I-80!

[csx8851]

Sure, lets say all this selling nonsense goes through, CSX hypothetically no longer runs on the Fremont to Oak Point and NYA is given the responsibility for the interchange. How in the world are they even gonna get all those cars (80+ at times) over Hells Gate with their yard switchers and GPs that they have laying around. They better find some six-axles quick.