Kingston NY Yard area track chart?

[CPSK]

Hi;
I am trying to create a prototypical layout in Trainz TS12 (soon to upgrade to Trainz A New Era), and also to create a schematic for Train Dispatcher 3.
I am a little confused about what is going on in Kingston. From the GE images I am using, I can see the alignment (as of the last Google image update) for the main track(s), and the yard, but I would like to get signalling info. Is Kingston yard just an entry/exit point for the territory, or is one or more of the yard tracks configured as a controlled siding. Now, I know that there is a controlled siding from CP 87 to CP90 (or has this been extended recently).
From what I can see on the GE images, the south yard lead is from the controlled siding (the track on the east side), and from both the main and controlled siding at the north end, about 0.6mi south of CP90.
I see that there is also a short siding on the west side coming off the main with switches at both ends.

Also; I seem to be missing some automatic signals north of Kingston.
North of CP90 there are automatics at 92, 95, and 97, but I believe there is another one between 97 and the CP102, unless that controlled siding has been extended south to say CP100? Otherwise, 5 miles would be too far between signals, so I assume there is one at 99 or 100.
Maybe I can find a cab ride vid on YouTube, but so far I haven't found any for that area.

Thanks for any info

CP

[Ironman]

You have the track lay out correct but you are confusing a couple of things.

The Kingston yard tracks are not signaled, they are all hand thrown switches. You need verbal permission from the dispatcher to get out of the yard tracks as he can't give you any kind of signal since there aren't any. The siding from CP90 to CP87 is signaled, not controlled.

There is no CP100, but there is an automatic 100.

[CPSK]

You have the track lay out correct but you are confusing a couple of things.

The Kingston yard tracks are not signaled, they are all hand thrown switches. You need verbal permission from the dispatcher to get out of the yard tracks as he can't give you any kind of signal since there aren't any. The siding from CP90 to CP87 is signaled, not controlled.

There is no CP100, but there is an automatic 100.

I thought that any track that is between two CP is controlled. Are you saying that the switches at CP87 and CP90 are hand-thrown? I may be naive, but I thought that all CP are controlled, and thus wouldn't the siding track between two of them be controlled?
Maybe I am confusing the passing track with the short siding on the west side of the main track, across from the Kingston yard?

CP

[Backshophoss]

Any Main Line switches would be Dual-Control(powered) or Electric Locked,controlled by the DS,the rest
of the yard would be hand throws.
Does CSX use the term "Restricted Limts"?,in GCOR,Restricted Limits,all switches with in the limits, require the DS to give
permission to enter/use the main track, for switching,crossing over,and leaving the yard heading out of the limits.

[Ironman]

The siding is signaled, as in the signals at either CP convey block information on the siding. A controlled siding would still be interlocked, and thus would still have CPs, but the signals would not convey block information. Therefore the best signal at the CPs you could ever get if you were entering a controlled siding would be restricting. That is a big difference.

The switches for the yard off the main or the siding are hand thrown electric lock switches, they are not controlled by the dispatcher. You need verbal permission to open these switches. Once in the yard they are regular hand throws without electric locks. CSX does not use the term Restricted Limits.

[Train Detainer]

I think there's a little confusion starting regarding controlled sidings. Ironman is correct about the track layout and switches, however a signaled siding is a controlled siding but a controlled siding is not necessarily a signaled siding. The confusion seems to stem (and I've heard it way too many times) from the change in official terminology from Conrail to CSX.

There are three primary types of track when it comes to how they're used, main tracks, other than main tracks, and running tracks (which can go either way). The difference comes in the terminology used to identify them.

Conrail referred to sidings as controlled or non-controlled sidings. CSX refers to former controlled sidings (with ABS) up north as signaled sidings. A controlled siding is just that - one that is controlled by some kind of signal system, which could be ABS, DCS or whatever. By nature, that means that a controlled siding is a main track, which requires electric locked switches and permission to occupy it (from the Dispatcher) just like the 'Main'. A non-controlled siding would be 'other than main track', which could be part of a yard or just a siding that doesn't require an active system of control.

A track's status as a 'main track' (or otherwise) is officially designated in the timetable and given names like 'Main' or 'Siding', 'Main Track 2', '3 Yard Lead' or 'High Iron'. Of course all tracks are named, and 'tracks other than main tracks' covers most everything that's not designated as a main (Running Tracks are a special breed). The name of the track can be anything (that preferably makes sense) but doesn't really have anything to do with the type of track that it actually is.

Likewise, the type of signal (or control) system for a particular segment of track is designated in the timetable in the Rules In Effect. If the Rules in Effect indicates a siding (like the current Signaled Siding in Kingston which would have been designated a Controlled Siding under Conrail had it been signaled then) is controlled with ABS, then the signals that govern entrance to the siding convey block occupancy information just as they do for any main track. If the siding were a controlled siding with DCS rules under Conrail, that information would have been conveyed by Form D and the best signal indication available to enter DCS was Restricting, although there were a few exceptions where better signals were permitted. Under Conrail the Kingston siding was a Non-Controlled (non-signaled) Siding and the best signal indication to enter was Restricting.

As for CPs, yes they are normally controlled by the Dispatcher, but only CPs are controlled directly by the Dispatcher (as in remotely operating the interlocking equipment), not any ABS territory between them. The Dispatcher controls ABS territory through rules and procedures (like opening electrically locked switches and setting on little white trucks).

From Hoss's post, in the most basic terms dual controlled switches are located within interlockings and normally controlled by the dispatcher (or his computer). The hand-throw capability is there in case of remote/power failure. What Hoss refers to as Restricted Limits in GCOR is known as Yard Limits here and there are none at Kingston. They were used in DCS (dark) territory on Conrail (e.g. the North Country, former E Desk).

T.D.

[Ironman]

I agree, it's kind of a difference in terms, but the devil is in these little details.

So let me try to explain again. The signal rules you speak of were NORAC rules, but CSX changed that back in '04 when they stopped using the NORAC signal rules on their ex-Conrail territory in favor of their own. They are still based off NORAC, but there are some major differences.

Until last year, the best signal you could get when entering the siding at either CP90 or CP87 was CSX rule CR1290, restricting. It didn't matter if the siding was clear and you were just running around a train stopped on the main, the signals did not convey block information at either CP when entering. You had to proceed on the siding at restricted speed, in fact you had to approach either CP prepared to stop. Leaving the siding you could get better signals. The switches for the CP's themselves, as I said were controlled by the dispatcher. Hence the term "controlled siding".

Now as of last year, the siding itself is signaled, so you can get CSX rule CR1283, medium clear, at CP90 or CP87. The switches at the CP's are still controlled by the dispatcher, but the signals at either CP now convey block information when entering the siding. Hence the term "signaled siding". It's a big difference that makes total sense when you think about it.

The main point I was trying to make for the OP is that the hand thrown switches for the yard off the siding have to be electric lock switches, just like the main. There are no signals or special instructions just because the yard connects to both tracks on the north end.