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  • MMA To File 241 Mile Abandonment With STB

  • Discussion of present-day CM&Q operations, as well as discussion of predecessors Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway (MMA) and Bangor & Aroostook Railroad (BAR).
Discussion of present-day CM&Q operations, as well as discussion of predecessors Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway (MMA) and Bangor & Aroostook Railroad (BAR).

Moderator: MEC407

 #822270  by Cowford
 
Going from memory, I believe the CP mileage Montreal-St John is actually something like 481, not 350. And St. John to Moncton is 89. Granted, the CP route is quite a bit shorter Montreal - St John, particularly as CN has to double back from Moncton to access St John. But the difference between the two routes to Moncton is negligible. You are either saying that CN wants to have two through routes in this corridor, or that they would abandon their over-the-top route in favor on the CP line. With respect, I find the former argument preposterous and the latter argument highly unlikely. Where did you hear this? Where are these trestles to which you refer?

With regard to haulage and power, it's not like they'd be constantly changing out power, and movements of locomotives/non-revenue equipment can be written into a haulage agreement. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if a sale actually happens, Newco would get into some kind of joint facilities agreement with MMA to provide servicing at Millinocket and/or Derby. Strangely enough, on arrangements like this railroads typically don't screw with each other because, as they say, payback's a b*&#$. In this case, keep in mind that the MMA would most likely rely on Newco for locomotive changeouts on their Mad-St Leonard segment.
 #822370  by roberttosh
 
The other thing is that there is exponentially more on-line business on the CN route, so while it may be a little further mileage wise, it's likely much more profitable to run that line as opposed to the old CP line which runs through a lot of nothing and is more of a slow, twisting, turning, hilly line.
 #822401  by calaisbranch
 
For some reason, the only thing I could see CN doing if owning both lines is putting strictly long distance, pre-blocked manifest freights on the MMA/NBSR and keeping their own line for pigs, stacks and racks. Kind of like relieving their "main" of anything except a few local freights to serve online. Either that or play tenant over MMA/NBSR like CP and MEC used to do on the joint mileage between Mattawamkeag and Vanceboro. The latter seems even more pointless, though.

The thought of CN having two parallel lines is definitely intriguing, but seems way unlikely to me. It certainly fires the imagination, but I think the whole thing will only go as far as NBSR getting the earlier suggested segment between Millinocket and Madawaska.

JB
 #822479  by CN9634
 
It's a mixed bag but the motive was because of the issue with the trestles. Salmon River, Powers Creek and Foley Brook are all pretty large and old trestles. They will require massive money to fix. Like all things railroad, this was purely talk a few years back. As you can tell, nothing materialized. Perhaps since this time CN has been making investments into the trestles. (I haven't been up that way since 2006 myself). If you are unfamiliar with the trestles, I suggest you do some research. They are very large and can make for great photo ops. I've seen some pretty cool photos from that area outside Grand Falls, NB.

Also, another possible solution to this problem was CN repurchasing the NBEC line to Campbellton a little bit ago. From what I remember for online traffic wasn't much on the Napadogan line. I toured it all the way from Escourt (50 miles or so from the cutoff) to Grand Falls. At the time there wasn't much business, it was mostly a bridge line. A few lumber mills, a Grand Falls local and some other. To tie this back into the MMA, they actually run trains into New Brunswick (For those who don't know) on trackage rights into St. Leonard/Grand Falls. There is a mill across the border which they serve (Not exactly sure the story but I believe it has something to do with the Van Buren Bridge Company) It is curious to note that since the MMA wishes to retain trackage from Madawaska to St. Leonard, if they will continue to operate into New Brunswick after the abandonment (I don't see a reason for them not to).

The distances I got weren't from railroad sources but from the closest matches I could find. The St. John - Montreal was a straight line so it was bound to be off. Same with the St. J - Moncton. Studies were conducted a few years ago from within Maine about the amount of traffic moving around Maine rather than through it. This report is where I based a lot of my information as it stated the 12 hour difference in travel time. I will dig to see if I can resurrect it.

I can see a "newco" making a deal with the MMA for motive power (Unless it's Pan Am who can easily bring power to Waterville). I feel it is obvious the motive of keeping a small patch on the north tip of the line from Madawaska to Van Buren. Yes, the Mill in Madawaska could yet have some use (What is it Fraser, or Twin Rivers or something else now?) but it is having its own problems. It seems to me a way to prevent interchange traffic from newco with CN. This would make it so newco would have to connect with the MMA on both ends. This is definitely one of the reasons the State put in the clause that I posted a little bit back. I feel the State has learned after dealing with Guilford with the Mountain Division or the Lewiston Lower, that allowing them to hold onto a small piece of Railroad can prevent future plans. When Safe Handling took on the Maine Coast, they wanted to rebuilt the Lewiston Lower and connect with the SLR. This was impossible due to the stretch that Guilford owned.
 #822634  by Highball
 
CN9634 wrote:The distances I got weren't from railroad sources but from the closest matches I could find. The St. John - Montreal was a straight line so it was bound to be off. Same with the St. J - Moncton. Studies were conducted a few years ago from within Maine about the amount of traffic moving around Maine rather than through it. This report is where I based a lot of my information as it stated the 12 hour difference in travel time. I will dig to see if I can resurrect it.
Browsing a 1994 VIA RAIL timetable that lists both the Atlantic Ltd.( Train #'s 11 / 12 through Maine ) with the Ocean Ltd. ( through Campbellton N.B. and Mon-Joli P.Q., the mileages listed were thus:

..............Moncton to Montreal over the Atlantic Route, 543.6 miles
..............Moncton to Montreal over the Ocean Route, 650 miles.........a difference of 106.4 miles

Of course, the passenger rail miles would differ slightly from freight mileage due to passenger terminals being located within city centers.
CN9634 wrote:It's a mixed bag but the motive was because of the issue with the trestles. Salmon River, Powers Creek and Foley Brook are all pretty large and old trestles
The Salmon River trestle is 200 ft. high and 4600 feet long........the longest main line bridge on CN Rail's Transcon System.
 #822923  by Cowford
 
The "Ocean" route, which operates via Bathurst and Miramichi is a completely different route than that of the CN freight main, which operates via Edmunston and Chipman.
I feel it is obvious the motive [of MMA]...
Obvious is an understatement! Again, if it hadn't been for the new consulting company the state hired, as obvious as it is, this probably would have got by the state. Do you see them referencing the need for access rights (or even connecting line issues) with their recent Mountain or Eastport boondoggles? Nope.

It'll be interesting to see that report to which you are referring.
 #823002  by CN9634
 
There is some MMA news in the latest edition of CRO. It sounds like MMA resigned a contract to haul more autos. Also it says traffic is up with trains number 1 and 2 both running daily instead of one each way every other day.

Further, there is a new part of the MMA website specifically for Derby Shops!

http://www.canadianrailwayobservations. ... O_0710.pdf

http://www.mmarail.com/derbyshops.php
 #823133  by Cowford
 
First time I've seen CRO... lots of info, but they need an editor and fact checker. To wit:

* Millinocket is in Maine, not Quebec (and it's PQ not QC)
* To the best of my knowledge, KIAs (or any other autos) are neither ramped, deramped, assembled nor imported in Maine. I assume they meant that KIAs are coming in over St John for import to Montreal?
* So, MMA is going to "replace the train conductor position by a remote control caboose between Millinocket and Mégantic?" Now this I gotta see! :P
 #823289  by calaisbranch
 
Cowford wrote:First time I've seen CRO... lots of info, but they need an editor and fact checker. To wit:

* Millinocket is in Maine, not Quebec (and it's PQ not QC)
* To the best of my knowledge, KIAs (or any other autos) are neither ramped, deramped, assembled nor imported in Maine. I assume they meant that KIAs are coming in over St John for import to Montreal?
* So, MMA is going to "replace the train conductor position by a remote control caboose between Millinocket and Mégantic?" Now this I gotta see! :P
A couple weeks back, the crew on the morning #2 in Brownville was talking as if they had recently tried this on their run. He was saying how much smoother and faster it is with the conductor along. Unless strictly for yard switching, I'd think it would be a serious P.I.T.A. doing everything by yourself.
 #823374  by Cowford
 
Calais, so they're actually seriously talking about going to one-man crews on road freights and the RC car is to allow for one-man operations when switching is needed? Interesting... the eyes of the rail industry will be on that operation, for sure.
 #823738  by calaisbranch
 
Cowford wrote:Calais, so they're actually seriously talking about going to one-man crews on road freights and the RC car is to allow for one-man operations when switching is needed? Interesting... the eyes of the rail industry will be on that operation, for sure.
Supposedly, they've already done it on the Searsport run. I have only seen two-man jobs there, personally. I habe seen them do it at NMJ many times, but that is just switching. As I said that last time, the #2 that day talked as if it has been tried over the road.

When doing the yard stuff like at NMJ, they tuck the RC caboose in between two locos. You can watch the crewman on the ground walking and controlling the power. Ever seen pictures of the cabooses like VB-2 and VB-3? They have headlights, horns, and the like. Wierd to see the first couple of times, but pretty cool, too!
 #823923  by doublestack
 
If you'd really like to see this remote control, one man train switching operation in action, take a ride up to Millinocket. Follow route 11 into town to Bates st. This is the same road that takes you to the Golden Road. Once you pass under the railroad bridge, take your first right onto Station st. Go up the hill past the MMA dispatch office and park next to the tracks and have your camera ready. If you stay close to your vehicle, they won't bother you.

We were up there this spring and spent over an hour watching one guy making up a south bound freight with his joy stick control just a few feet from us!!

Have fun,
Peter
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