Hampton Roads/Norfolk/Newport News NE Regional Service

[gokeefe]

I wonder about what the "in-fill" service would look like. Almost seems to point towards putting a trainset (or two) in a "shuttle" service configuration. Fascinating to even consider how many trains per day that would mean for Richmond-Washington.

[electricron]

Maybe Virginia should look at copying North Carolina, having a within the state service like D.C. to Norfolk and/or Newport News via Richmond and D.C. to Roanoke. They could use the soon to be available Horizon equipment from the Midwest. Of course finding more track slots on privately owned freight tracks will be a problem, but triple and double tracking more of the corridors should appease the freight railroads.

That was not a problem in North Carolina because the state owns 99% the corridor the Piedmont trains use.

[Tadman]

I'm finishing up a trip WAS-NPN and back. I notice there are 2x each way to NPN and 1x to Norfolk. I can't seem to make sense of this. It's the same metro area. Now you have two terminals to maintain, staff, and clean. You have two train storage areas. And you have a run time 35 minutes longer to Norfolk. Given that they run connecting busses to Norfolk for every NPN train, why bother with the Norfolk train?

[electricron]

I'm finishing up a trip WAS-NPN and back. I notice there are 2x each way to NPN and 1x to Norfolk. I can't seem to make sense of this. It's the same metro area. Now you have two terminals to maintain, staff, and clean. You have two train storage areas. And you have a run time 35 minutes longer to Norfolk. Given that they run connecting busses to Norfolk for every NPN train, why bother with the Norfolk train?

Those buses could easily go the opposite way, and others might ask why have trains to NPN?
There's nothing wrong have two train stations within the same metro, even within the same city.

[Suburban Station]

I'm finishing up a trip WAS-NPN and back. I notice there are 2x each way to NPN and 1x to Norfolk. I can't seem to make sense of this. It's the same metro area. Now you have two terminals to maintain, staff, and clean. You have two train storage areas. And you have a run time 35 minutes longer to Norfolk. Given that they run connecting busses to Norfolk for every NPN train, why bother with the Norfolk train?

Those buses could easily go the opposite way, and others might ask why have trains to NPN?
There's nothing wrong have two train stations within the same metro, even within the same city.

If you had to choose nfk would make the most sense. Double tracked main line and a terminal if the city itself with better access to VA beach.

[deathtopumpkins]

I'm finishing up a trip WAS-NPN and back. I notice there are 2x each way to NPN and 1x to Norfolk. I can't seem to make sense of this. It's the same metro area. Now you have two terminals to maintain, staff, and clean. You have two train storage areas. And you have a run time 35 minutes longer to Norfolk. Given that they run connecting busses to Norfolk for every NPN train, why bother with the Norfolk train?

As someone who grew up in that area, allow me to share my perspective:

While Hampton Roads is one metro area, the seven cities that make it up are VERY distinct from each other. And the region is rather sprawling because of this. Sure, Norfolk is probably the most "urban", but Newport News, Hampton, Va Beach all have their own "downtowns" and all function largely independently. This is especially true of each side of the harbor. Thus it's fair for some purposes to consider each half of the region as its own market.

The main connection between the two halves of the region is the Hampton Roads Bridge-Tunnel, which is VERY congested, and a nightmare for anyone who has to deal with it regularly. Running trains to Norfolk in addition to the bus connections to Newport News allows people to avoid that headache. It's easily an hour drive from Va Beach to Newport News, without traffic at the HRBT. If you're going to drive an hour and potentially sit in traffic before even getting on the train, you might as well just keep driving. And I guarantee you no one from the Peninsula would drive to Norfolk (30-60 minutes in the wrong direction) to then take a train to Richmond or beyond.

Finally, sure, NFK might be 35 minutes farther away than NPN, but it's also a 35 minute drive without traffic between the two.

So adding NFK trains draws in passengers from the Southside without sacrificing Peninsula riders. Both trains are doing splendidly on both ridership and accounting, so I don't think this setup is exactly hurting Amtrak.

[Tadman]

I see what yall are saying, but...

San Francisco passengers ride a bus across the bay for the Zephyr, Capitols, and Starlight. Connecticut and Long Island Passengers somehow cross they bays/rivers to catch the Silver trains a Penn, plus Jersey passengers cross the Hudson to get the Lakeshore, Empire, Leaf, et al...

I don't have an opinion on whether NFK or NPN is better, but I think they should pick only one if NYC and SFO passengers have to hump over their bays.

[tvcigar]

Virginia is footing the bill, so the trains go on both sides of the river James.

[SemperFidelis]

So adding NFK trains draws in passengers from the Southside without sacrificing Peninsula riders. Both trains are doing splendidly on both ridership and accounting, so I don't think this setup is exactly hurting Amtrak.

I think I see the point you are making about ridership not being sacrificed, but it is also fair to add that ridership from Newport News is down something like 33% since the Norfolk service came on line. As you stated it is probably a combination of new riders and riders who would rather not schlep across the harbor, but it is still worth mentioning.

Norfolk needs more frequencies though I can't imagine more trains would be a bad thing for Newport News either. Norfolk could use a rental car agency at or near the station or a shuttle thereto. My family has been wanting to try the service to use our place on the Outer Banks but it is too much of a hassle compared to flying direct or into Norfolk Int'l.

[The EGE]

Those are all different scenarios. There aren't any Amtrak routes coming from the south (save for the Coast Starlight which needs to continue north) that even could get to San Francisco. And if CAHSR ever happens, it is going to go up the peninsula to SF proper. The NYC metropolitan area has fairly reliable rail links in every direction; it's not like the Hampton Roads area where, as deathtopumpkins explained, getting across the James is an actual nightmare.

You also pick up some secondary markets by going both ways. The Norfolk route gets Petersburg, plus possible future stops at Chesapeake and Suffolk. The NPN route gets Williamsburg, and there are plans to replace the current NPN station with an I-64/Airport station and a downtown station.

[SemperFidelis]

I don't have an opinion on whether NFK or NPN is better, but I think they should pick only one if NYC and SFO passengers have to hump over their bays.

Or perhaps we should push for better service for the outer reaches of the metropolitan areas of those cities. I don't know all that much about San Fransisco but as a former North Jerseyan (Jersian?) I know it was always a major annoyance accessing Amtrak what with Newark Penn being our best option. There is no decent remedy to this, though, as our only Amtrak route is the NE Corridor.

Then again, and I am typing while I am thinking here so I apologize for the non-linear thought process, New Jersey, Long Island, and Oakland all have access to Amtrak via excellent mass transit that is congestion free, frequent, and not terribly expensive. Newport News is connected by way of a city bus system that must use the harbor tunnel which is subject to general traffic conditions. So San Fransisco, Long Island, and New Jersey arent't really the best comparisons for Newport News.

And, as someone stated a moment ago, if the state is paying for it, let it go where they want it to go.

[electricron]

I see what yall are saying, but...

San Francisco passengers ride a bus across the bay for the Zephyr, Capitols, and Starlight. Connecticut and Long Island Passengers somehow cross they bays/rivers to catch the Silver trains a Penn, plus Jersey passengers cross the Hudson to get the Lakeshore, Empire, Leaf, et al...

I don't have an opinion on whether NFK or NPN is better, but I think they should pick only one if NYC and SFO passengers have to hump over their bays.

Not quite a fair comparison, BART exists and crosses San Francisco Bay, Caltrain exists from San Jose to San Francisco going around San Francisco Bay. There is no railroad tunnel or railroad bridge across Hampton Roads, and there is no local commuter rail agency in the Tidewater area running trains to or from Richmond. So Virginia subsidizes Amtrak's services to both sides of Hampton Roads.
Boston has three Amtrak stations within the same city, DFW has two Amtrak stations within the same metro area. Others might suggest a few other metro areas that have more than one Amtrak station. You might be surprised at how many there are.

[SemperFidelis]

In technical terms New York City has three, though I would count only two. NY Penn, Newark, and Metropark all lie within the NY metro area, but I think it is more fair to only count Newark and NY Penn, which are connected to one another by Amtrak, NJ Transit, and PATH. Metropark is a super pain in the butt to get to.

[Hawaiitiki]

Metropark is a super pain in the butt to get to.

Not if you live along the Garden State Parkway

[SemperFidelis]

I guess I was referring to access to Metropark from New York City. Not that the GSP is a picnic even if you live near it, of course.