Amtrak Diner and Food Service Discussion

[ryanov]

That said, I think one could make an argument for a non-union wage guy making $10/hour selling soda and the like. At Amtrak prices, they'd have to sell 20 sodas an hour to cover their cost.

Or we could just fund Amtrak. We're not even talking serious money here. I realize it's a foregone conclusion that the collective "we" are not going to do anything intelligent about this, but it's sort of infuriating.

[leviramsey]

That said, I think one could make an argument for a non-union wage guy making $10/hour selling soda and the like. At Amtrak prices, they'd have to sell 20 sodas an hour to cover their cost.

Or we could just fund Amtrak. We're not even talking serious money here. I realize it's a foregone conclusion that the collective "we" are not going to do anything intelligent about this, but it's sort of infuriating.

That throwing money at things (if it's possible to get a long-term political commitment from everyone who could [reasonably] possibly wield political power over said term) is an option doesn't invalidate points about efficiency. For any given level of investment, an option with 50% lower costs means (to a first approximation) twice as much benefit from the investment.

[electricron]

Or we could just fund Amtrak. We're not even talking serious money here. I realize it's a foregone conclusion that the collective "we" are not going to do anything intelligent about this, but it's sort of infuriating.

Or we could just decide to let Amtrak sink or swim like every other intercity transportation provider by not funding it.

[Bob Roberts]

Just off a ride from Halifax to Montreal on Via's Ocean and I have a slightly different impression of their food model.

The Ocean uses the airline catered food model instead of cooking on board like Amtrak. I was very surprised to see that this approach didn't appear to significantly chnage labor costs. There was a lead service attendant, two wait staff as well as a 'food tech' (he appearded to double as one of two snack bar attendants) who was in charge of plating, warming and moving the food carts back and forth. By my count this reduces staffing (compared to Amtrak) by one kitchen person. Because the catered food was actually plated (unlike airlines) there was still onboard dishwashing to be done. This staffing structure differed from the more airline-like model I had imagined of one or two wait staff serving food from partially prepared treys like they do in Via Business Class on the corridor.

On the plus side the food was very good, particularly the Lobster Roll at lunch (the food tech had clearly assembled the roll just before serving). The LSA did say that all eastbound food is prepared at the Weston Hotel in Halifax which is adjacent to the station. Another plus was the absence of a kitchen allowed for more seats in the diner (there were two wait stations in the middle of the car and I believe diswashing happend in one of them) and Via has two person booths and they don't make solo diners double up (alhough this was a nearly empty train).

TLDR: the catered food model did not appear to be much more efficient than the current Amtrak model to this casual observer.

Off topic: Via sleeper class is head and shoulders above Amtrak's. Better mattresses, less noisy compartments, duvets and real pillows, locking doors with key cards provided (this felt like overkill) plus the greatest amenity ever the domed Park car for all Sleeper passengers. That said, all the compartments on the Ocean were the equivalent of Amtrak bedrooms, there were no roomettes -- although I paid less for my bedroom Halifax to Montreal (in USD) than I paid for my roomette from CLT to NYP (a trip that takes half the time) four nights before.

[Amtrak7]

The Ocean uses the airline catered food model instead of cooking on board like Amtrak. I was very surprised to see that this approach didn't appear to significantly chnage labor costs. There was a lead service attendant, two wait staff as well as a 'food tech' (he appearded to double as one of two snack bar attendants) who was in charge of plating, warming and moving the food carts back and forth. By my count this reduces staffing (compared to Amtrak) by one kitchen person. Because the catered food was actually plated (unlike airlines) there was still onboard dishwashing to be done. This staffing structure differed from the more airline-like model I had imagined of one or two wait staff serving food from partially prepared treys like they do in Via Business Class on the corridor.

I don't think Amtrak has two people in the kitchen anymore.

Via did eliminate the unbundled food option - did it seem that everyone in sleepers took the meals, or did a nontrivial number forego them?

[Bob Roberts]

I don't think Amtrak has two people in the kitchen anymore.

Via did eliminate the unbundled food option - did it seem that everyone in sleepers took the meals, or did a nontrivial number forego them?

Actually on this trip Via did not offer an unbundled sleeper option when I booked (the end of 2015) and on checkin the attendants implied that the unbundled option was no longer available on the Ocean (the statement was "all sleeper passengers are now all inclusive"). it appeared that most sleeper pax did eat in the diner. However, they offerd three seatings at dinner and there were only about 20 sleeper pax so my observations were limited.

[Arlington]

IIRC VIA loses something like $500 per sleeper passenger versus Amtrak's $100 to $200, so, yeah, I would expect their service to be better.

[bdawe]

IIRC VIA loses something like $500 per sleeper passenger versus Amtrak's $100 to $200, so, yeah, I would expect their service to be better.

To account for other confounding variables VIA's sleeper services (the Canadian, the Ocean, and the Winnipeg-Churchill Train) are all

• Two or three day-a-week-ers (known factors for poor performance and high costs)
• Extremely Slow (higher man-hour to pax-mile ratio)
• From what I've been told, highly staffed (to compound the previous two)

As in the Canadian Sleepers are among the slowest passenger trains in North America.

The Canadian saunters across the continent at a luxious 34 mph average speed, as though it were a heavyweight steam train. The Ocean manages a comparatively spry 36 mph, while the Winnipeg-Churchill averages the truly august pace of 29.5 mph

The Coast Starlight, from what I can tell Amtrak's slowest long-haul train can at least average 40 (northbound).

That's mostly just to say that the Canadians aren't really a good comparatives for service or sleepers or diners

[Arlington]

(from the Slivers Diner Thread:

the problem is stagnating wages to the point where having a standard meal at a sit-down could be considered unaffordable.

Stagnating wages are very bad (I'm for a $15/hr min wage), but even so, what most "working folks" are eating these days is quick-service meals ("fast food") or casual-service ("Applebees") who pay low wages but whose real secret to affordability is high productivity (lots of table turns, limited menus, semi-prepared food).

But you know what? Of all the things working people don't have money for, food eaten out does not seem to be the problem:


Whether it is high(er)-wage Costco or low(er)-wage Wendy's, the real issue is that other food providers are free to optimize their menu and production processes to deliver prepared food that rivals groceries you prepare yourself. It is a trend, but a lot of it is driven by the continuous innovation that's happening at land-based food retailers. In fact, in 2015 they estimate that people are now spending more food eating out than on groceries.


Wages have stagnated, but what working people have *really* cut back on are discretionary (non-food) spending. Falling food costs have generally been a boon for lower-income workers.

Click image for a whole article in the Atlantic on falling food costs


Even if we raised the wages of "the competition" (on land), and raised the wages of "the customers" on board, we'd still have the problem of throughput--you just can't "capture" and serve enough people on a train to keep workers and equipment as busy/productive as they need to be to deliver food for about the same price as land. Wendy's has walk-up, drive-thru, and a whole parking lot (and then late-night drive thru) to make the whole thing work. Another trick is that for many, today's unsold Rotisserie chicken or hamburgers are tomorrow's chicken salad or (Wendy's) chili, but the quality and value (such as they are) that such land-based systems deliver cannot be matched once you're moving on a train (or airplane).

The airlines "solved" this problem by eliminating food. Travelers didn't stop eating and didn't stop traveling. They simply started buying their food at stores or airport restaurants that seem to have done a good-enough job (and deliver way more variety and arguably better quality than a rolling diner can). To the extent that there is food on planes, there's no kitchen and meals produced in high-productivity factory commissaries simply get reheated wholesale. That is what food looks like when it's included in a ticket price, not a sit down meal.

And as we've seen on the Silver Star, eliminating the diner (and lowering fares) caused the numbers of sleeper-class riders go up! It is very hard to argue that those customers "should" be able to afford a sit-down, table-service meal, when they are happier (or at least more numerous) procuring their food elsewhere and saving $100.

[gokeefe]

The best reason why Amtrak should continue to reform their foodservice model is because accommodations (coach, business, first, sleeper) are truly what they do best. That is where the big money and big opportunities are for them. They are extremely competitive on a qualitative basis with airlines in that area, in fact they simply put them all to shame.

[Mackensen]

Jim Loomis reports that Amtrak is experimenting with shrink-wrapped pre-prepared meals and will try them out on the City of New Orleans and Cardinal (dates TBD).

[Arlington]

Jim Loomis reports that Amtrak is experimenting with shrink-wrapped pre-prepared meals and will try them out on the City of New Orleans and Cardinal (dates TBD).

More importantly, he thought they were good-to-excellent! That's huge. Good food produced from a small amount of cubic feet means more revenue seats.

[David Benton]

Hopefully they are available to coach customers in the cafe car as well. Or delivered to the seat/benroom by coach/sleeper assistant.

[JimBoylan]

What's different between these new meals and Acela 1st Class meals, or the former Amclub meals that were also served on the Cardinal 40 years ago?

[Rockingham Racer]

The best reason why Amtrak should continue to reform their foodservice model is because accommodations (coach, business, first, sleeper) are truly what they do best. That is where the big money and big opportunities are for them. They are extremely competitive on a qualitative basis with airlines in that area, in fact they simply put them all to shame.

This is probably true as far as it goes, but I think the airlines have it when in first class, especially international first class.