North Coast Hiawatha - Big Sky Passenger Rail Authority (BSPRA)

[Gilbert B Norman]

Like he has numerous occasions previously, Mr. Norman continues to state the "endpoint" reason that Amtrak chose the Chicago-Seattle train. Not the case.

Mr. Meyer, I'd sure like to locate that report the Incorporators accepted, but I cannot. However, you must be prepared to accept there is greater passenger traffic potential along the NP than the GN.

I accept your chronology regarding Sen. Mansfield, but his absence might well have been a factor regarding the choice to whack the Hi over the Builder when the Carter Cuts were effected.

Finally, I respect you have had many more years of railroad service than did I. Eleven years with a moribund outfit was quite enough - and when I "pulled the pin", it was no longer fun as it was when I "hired on".

[vermontanan]

Mr. Meyer, I'd sure like to locate that report the Incorporators accepted, but I cannot. However, you must be prepared to accept there is greater passenger traffic potential along the NP than the GN.

The report is not relevant, regardless. The salient point is simply about the logic of the statement. Even if the report said there was more endpoint ridership on the pre-Amtrak Empire Builder route, it is ridiculous to even state that could be a reason for choosing that route over another when the Amtrak route will be the only one between those endpoints. In other words, this kind of document would have sent Mr. Spock screaming back to Vulcan.

I will "accept there is greater passenger traffic potential along the NP than the GN" when the Empire Builder quits consistently outperforming all the other long distance routes in ridership. The general reason for such a claim is on-line population, but the Empire Builder has less of it at intermediate locations than any other long distance train based on similar mileage. Therefore, using that logic, it should be the least-ridden train. And, the 2009 study, Amtrak projected ridership on a restored North Coast Hiawatha to be well below that of the Empire Builder, with a cost recovery less than that of the Empire Builder (though the North Coast Hiawatha was projected to perform better as far as cost recovery and ridership than most other long-distance trains). It also should be noted that the 2009 projection for the North Coast Hiawatha was undoubtedly comparing it to the freshest available data for the existing long-distance trains, which would have been FY 2008. The North Coast Hiawatha study projected ridership of 359,800; Empire Builder ridership in FY2008 was 554,266 - half again the ridership of the second-place train, the Silver Star, at 367,139. The 2008 Empire Builder ridership was well before the Bakken Boom but was a result of the equipment of the train receiving renovated equipment and upgraded amenities in 2005, so it's easy to remain bullish on the Empire Builder knowing what a stellar performer it can be IF it is properly marketed, something that seems like such a distant dream today. So, I will accept your premise when data and logic allow. So far, not.

I accept your chronology regarding Sen. Mansfield, but his absence might well have been a factor regarding the choice to whack the Hi over the Builder when the Carter Cuts were effected.

Mansfield's absence in the Senate in 1979 definitely hindered the survivability of the North Coast Hiawatha; I believe there is a better than 50-50 chance that the train would have survived had Mansfield still been the Senate Majority Leader. But the Empire Builder would have survived, too. Mansfield always thought both routes should have service, and never would have lobbied for one route over the other. Mansfield was a person of impeccable integrity and represented ALL of Montana.

--Mark Meyer

[mtuandrew]

You're referencing the 2009 (done in the middle of the Great Recession) study. Actually, BNSF has done many upgrades on the route east of Billings due to traffic in the Bakken Boom. But with two major helper districts (including heavy coal trains up a serpentine 2.2 percent grade west of Helena which restricts the number of trains to about 25 per day), don't expect that the MRL's wish list price tag would be anywhere the same as it was in 2009, either.

--Mark Meyer

Yep, that’s exactly the study I’m referring to. And, to be honest, I was surprised at how little money MRL wanted to host Amtrak. Doubling their price would be... well, still astronomical but more palatable than BNSF’s last quote. Not a terrible option for a Regional, if Montana would support it.

There’s also the southbound option, Butte via UP to Salt Lake. Not sure if the traffic warrants that one.

[Tadman]

Also worth reviewing the Montana rail map before going much further.
https://www.mdt.mt.gov/travinfo/docs/railmap.pdf

And a population density map
http://msucommunitydevelopment.org/macd ... PopEst.jpg

Most population is on the MRL/NP. Unfortunately there is no way of connecting the Glacier Park to a in-state major airport. So if there were an in-state passenger train it might be daily coach-only basically the entire MRL, or perhaps based in Helena and alternate days east/west. Another could connect Glacier with Sandpoint or Spokane to bring travelers in, but that would require BN to play ball.

It's also worth asking what other historic passenger trains were in Montana and the northern/western states. UP once had a Butte Special that connected Butte with SLC. Would that make more sense than a Northern Pacific route? Probably. How about the CB&Q's local it ran right up until Amtrak, Denver-Casper-Billings? There are some great pics out there of an SD9, E5, and two heavyweights holding down the run.

In the end, no legacy routes really make sense. We're at the same crossroads. Do we play "railfans connecting the dots on Amtrak's 1971/1921 map" or do we help Montana connect itself in a meaningful way? Because no Montana college students are going to ride a 3 day ride to school and no ranchers or mine managers are, either.

[Alphaboi]

We need to look forward and provide sustainable service that's useful to the local region. I think a regional corridor route, especially if it could run more than once a day, is much more practical than another long distance route.

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[west point]

Once Amtrak gets enough equipment then maybe NVH can be initiated ? But that equipment first needs to bulk out the current trains unless additional heritage equipment can be found earlier ?

[rohr turbo]

Below is a perhaps more illuminating population density map:

Because no Montana college students are going to ride a 3 day ride to school

Two campuses (Missoula, Bozeman) account for about 28K students who are more than 50% in-state. Plenty of opportunity to transport them where they want to go on less than 3 day ride (?!?)

[vermontanan]

How about the CB&Q's local it ran right up until Amtrak, Denver-Casper-Billings? There are some great pics out there of an SD9, E5, and two heavyweights holding down the run.

You need more than "great pics" to get this right.
Amtrak started service on May 1, 1971.
The Denver-Casper-Billings train (Nos. 29 and 30) was discontinued on September 1, 1967.
The Omaha-Edgemont-Billings train (Nos. 41 and 42) was discontinued on August 24, 1969.

CB&Q trains 41 and 42 (previously numbered 43 and 42) were the last regularly-scheduled passenger trains in South Dakota, and were famous for the incident at Hemingford, NE where train 41 was stopped dead in its track (pun intended) and passengers bused after CB&Q finally got approval for discontinuance, which it had long sought. The outrage about the abrupt action led a court to rule that the train be reinstated, but it ran for only a few more days. And, almost no one rode it afraid that CB&Q might pull the same shenanigans again!

--Mark Meyer

[vermontanan]

It's also worth asking what other historic passenger trains were in Montana and the northern/western states. UP once had a Butte Special that connected Butte with SLC. Would that make more sense than a Northern Pacific route? Probably. How about the CB&Q's local it ran right up until Amtrak, Denver-Casper-Billings?

Probably? Actually, probably not. It might be interesting to speculate on "other" routes such as the Butte Special and the Shoshone, but one must also be cognizant of infrastructure that would limit a route's success. The Butte Special route north of Idaho Falls is not signaled, except a short area through a canyon for slide protection. The route also has several standing 10 and 20 MPH speed restrictions. While the current maximum speed is 40 MPH, much of the track is good for much less.

The Shoshone route is not any better. Its current maximum speed is 40 or 49 MPH for freight trains, but there is only block signal protection in place between Wendover and Bridger Jct. (30 miles) and between Laurel and Billings (15 miles). There are also numerous permanent speed restrictions such as the Wind River Canyon, along the Big Horn River (it's the same river as the Wind), passing Warren AFB in Cheyenne (where train movements are actually restricted at times), and street running in Longmont, CO.

Without disproportionately huge amounts of capital to change the physical plant, it's unlikely that any passenger train between Denver and Billings or Salt Lake City and Butte could post a running time which would be even just twice as long as driving.

The North Coast Hiawatha route is nearly all CTC or double track, with the exception of Auburn-Yakima-Pasco where CTC governs only movements over siding switches. Clearly safer and less expensive to launch and more marketable than north/south alternatives.

--Mark Meyer

[Tadman]

To be clear, I'm not really advocating for any of the legacy long distance routes. Just pointing out that the NCL revival proposal is simply connecting or re-connecting old dots, and there has been very little critical thinking about the affair, be it other legacy routes, in-state regional service, or linking Glacier with the rest of the world.

[vermontanan]

To be clear, I'm not really advocating for any of the legacy long distance routes. Just pointing out that the NCL revival proposal is simply connecting or re-connecting old dots, and there has been very little critical thinking about the affair, be it other legacy routes, in-state regional service, or linking Glacier with the rest of the world.

Just because they're "legacy routes" doesn't mean they have no merit. But there is definitely a demonstration of lack of critical thinking when someone suggests that something in preference to something else without understanding the existing infrastructure. All you're doing is "connecting new dots" without knowing what it would take for this to actually happen. Unfortunately in the United States, the government doesn't maintain infrastructure for railroads like it does for the rest of transportation, so the reality of the condition of the current physical plant always needs to be one of the most important considerations.

[Westernstar1]

A few comments on earlier posts on this thread.

The airport at Kalispell, Mt, would be the nearest airport to Glacier Park (about 33 miles). And yes, there are no DIRECT flights to Kalispell from any other Montana city, Kind of surprising, at least to me.

It's too bad there aren't any Amtrak north-south trains through Rocky Mountain states. The old CB&Q "Nightcrawler" train, Denver to Billings, must have been a difficult journey without any sleepers.

The "Butte Special" would be nice if it was still around. Salt Lake City to Pocatello to Butte, with a connection to the "Yellowstone Special" at Idaho Falls. I believe it was a first class UP passenger train with full amenities. However, nowadays, not much of a connection possibility with the Zephyr, in SLC, considering the arrival times for both the westbound and eastbound CZ. I don't think there would be much of a ridership on the "Nightcrawler" if it were to be revived, as a flight from Denver to Billings is only about 1.5 hours. If a new Amtrak "Butte Special" made a comeback, it might be successful as a popular and scenic train to both Yellowstone and central Montana. However, I think the arrival times into SLC, for the Zephyr, would have to change for a practical "Butte Special" connection.

I would really like to see a passenger train arrive in Spokane at a reasonable hour. I'm hoping, with time, there would be a daytime Cascade train from Seattle to Spokane, Then, possibly an early morning train to central Montana along the NP route.

WS

[gokeefe]

I noticed that Livingston is only an hour north of Yellowstone. What's the history of that stop as an access point for national park travelers?

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[Westernstar1]

The Northern Pacific stopped in Livingston and then Gardiner, Mt. In the old days, they had a stagecoach from Gardiner into Yellowstone Park. Later on, I guess a shuttle bus. The North Coast Limited stopped in Livingston before its demise. I don't know if there was a shuttle from Livingston into the Park.

Old Northern Pacific depot in Gardiner, Montana:


WS

[vermontanan]

The airport at Kalispell, Mt, would be the nearest airport to Glacier Park (about 33 miles). And yes, there are no DIRECT flights to Kalispell from any other Montana city, Kind of surprising, at least to me.

At least pre-COVID-19, the only instrastate Montana air service is Essential Air Service based at Billings to Havre, Glasgow, Wolf Point, Sidney, and Glendive.

Here's an excerpt of an essay on the deterioration of public transportation in Southern Montana since 1979 (written in 2019):

"While some did vehemently oppose the cessation of rail passenger service to many of the state’s major cities, the outcry wasn’t enough to save the train. And besides, by then Montana had much less political clout in Congress, and alternatives to the three-times-per-week passenger train were abundant: Interstates 94 and 90 were nearly complete across the state where Greyhound was running four daily Chicago-to-Seattle buses (both express and those stopping at even the smallest communities), and Northwest Orient Airlines was still operating three or more daily flights from Chicago and/or Minneapolis/St. Paul to the Pacific Northwest with stops in Billings, Bozeman/Belgrade, Helena, and Missoula, as well as Fargo, Bismarck, and Spokane. Considering the rural nature of Montana, intrastate transportation was quite good, as was service to nearby states.

But nothing remains the same forever. Deregulation of the airlines in 1978 resulted in movement toward a “hub-and-spoke” system, rather than point-to-point which had previously been used. Northwest Orient began focusing on flights out of its hubs (Minneapolis/St. Paul and Detroit, and later though merger with Republic Airlines, Memphis) in the 1980s at which time Big Sky Airlines began service between Billings and Spokane, serving intermediate locations such as Belgrade, Helena, and Missoula. Big Sky declared bankruptcy in 2007 and ceased operations in 2008 with the only routes being assumed by other carriers were Essential Air Service flights out of the Billings hub to places like Miles City, Glendive, and Sidney.

Today, with the exception of Essential Air Service from Billings to Havre, Glasgow, Wolf Point, Sidney, and Glendive, it is not possible to fly commercially between any two Montana airports. Additionally, one cannot fly commercially from any airport in Montana to an airport in an adjacent state or Canadian province. For instance, a traveler from Billings to Missoula must travel via a hub airport, such as Minneapolis/St. Paul, Denver, Salt Lake City, or Seattle/Tacoma. As a result, intrastate air travel in Montana is cumbersome, expensive, and sometimes not as fast as driving.

Bus service today is no better. Greyhound maintained its 3-or-4 daily trips on Interstates 94 and 90 through Southern Montana until the early 2000s. But revenue from package express plummeted when such shipments began moving by the augmented networks of UPS and FedEx. Most of Montana’s intercity bus service has perished as a result. Jefferson Lines now provides the east-west bus service through Southern Montana with two buses daily west of Billings, and east of Billings with one daily bus each on Interstates 94 and 90. But service is very different today. In 1979 – the year the North Coast Hiawatha was discontinued – Greyhound served 38 Montana communities between the North Dakota border and the Idaho border. Today, Jefferson Lines serves but six. Excluded altogether are semi-major (by Montana standards, anyway) towns such as Laurel, Columbus, Livingston, Belgrade, and Deer Lodge. And the buses are prone to delay due to unrealistic schedules. The lone bus from Miles City to Billings has to average 70 MPH to make its schedule; the average speed from Billings to Missoula over two major mountain passes and with a rest stop at Butte is 60 MPH. These timings allow little wiggle room for Montana’s famed inclement weather or road work."

It's too bad there aren't any Amtrak north-south trains through Rocky Mountain states. The old CB&Q "Nightcrawler" train, Denver to Billings, must have been a difficult journey without any sleepers.

The only reference I have heard to this train is calling it the "Shoshone," though I've never seen it assigned a proper name.

The "Butte Special" would be nice if it was still around. Salt Lake City to Pocatello to Butte, with a connection to the "Yellowstone Special" at Idaho Falls. I believe it was a first class UP passenger train with full amenities.

In the early 1950s, the UP did operate the "Yellowstone Special" from Salt Lake City to West Yellowstone and Victor. By the late 1950s, the cars rode the Butte Special between Salt Lake City and Idaho Falls. Judging from Official Guides, looks like service to West Yellowstone lasted until about 1960 and Victor until 1966.