North Coast Hiawatha - Big Sky Passenger Rail Authority (BSPRA)

[Tadman]

Yep. Take that equipment and run a second frequency to Spokane or MSP. Run a new regional train to Duluth or Fargo. NCH would require, what, four or five equipment sets? That's 2-3 locomotives and 9 cars, including baggage, lounge, diner. Consider it 12 locomotives and 40 cars. What could you do with that? Power and four cars for Duluth 2x/day, power and four cars for Fargo 2x/day, power and four cars for "TC 400" run, and the same each for SEA-SPK and PDX-SPK.

This is service people could use. Frequency means options and that sells more than one stop a day.

[mtuandrew]

The amount of equipment needed for a North Coast Hiawatha could support a second CHI-MSP, a second SPK-SEA, and a new OMA-Sioux Falls train. You could possibly even get a DEN-Cheyenne train too.

[gokeefe]

It's interesting to me that it only becomes more obvious with time that restoring the North Coast Hiawatha really would burn about a billion dollars in order to serve one of the least populated areas of the entire country. It might take about 10 years to do it but when combined with required capital improvements it really would cost that much money.

There is no hope for this service.

The best anyone could get is a Thruway bus route connecting to the Empire Builder. That in of itself would be an achievement bordering on miraculous.

[mtuandrew]

A North Coast HiaThruway could be done fairly cheaply - it’s just a matter of through-ticketing with the Jefferson Lines route via Fargo, Bismarck, Miles City, Bozeman, Butte, and up to Whitefish.

[eolesen]

The 214 signatures received on that petition over two months is probably close to what the total ridership would be over two months...

[gokeefe]

Just cut everybody a check for mileage.

[Pensyfan19]

Even if there is not much potential ridership for this route, it would still be serving rural communities which would still rely on rail transport in order to get to large cities such as Chicago, Seattle, Spokane, and even Billings (Montana's largest city). With rail transport comes the opportunity to develop small towns and cities into something larger and to develop the town's, state's, and nation's economy as people are able to easily transport there, which is why railroads helped develop the United States into the great nation it is to this day. Even if not everyone supports full restoration of this route, even though it would support a second Chicago-Seattle train through more cities (Bismarck, ND and Billings, MT) and through a more populated portion of Montana, I would also be fine if it was a somewhat regional distance train from Butte, MT to Bismarck, ND, or even as a split section of the Empire Builder. I would take any of these options over a cramped coach bus any day where everyone feels every bump and runs the risk of getting a flat tire.
As for the revival of the Amtrak thruway connection thread being revived because of this, I feel that the ONLY practical use for these buses is for short commuting distances, such as from Oakland to San Francisco or from Penn Station to La Guardia. Amtrak had a chance to restore practical rail service to developing cities, especially Green Bay and Peoria (not counting the Prarie Marksman which only went to East Peoria, nowhere near the actual city), ever since 1971, but they have chosen to use a bus instead. Not to mention, some of these long distance and corridor trains don't have to be 10 cars long either. A similar consist to the Pioneer or Desert Wind in the 90s would be fine for certain routes with "low potential ridership" such as the North Coast Hiawatha.
The point is, some rail service is better than no rail service or a bus on many terms.

[east point]

For the next few days we better support an Amtrak bailout. Call and write all 3 of your congress critters and the chairmen of various transportation committees. If Amtrak is not bailed out there will not be a chance to get this route Amtrak in the future.

[gokeefe]

With rail transport comes the opportunity to develop small towns and cities into something larger and to develop it town's, state's, and nation's economy as people are able to easily transport there, which is why railroads helped develop the United States into the great nation it is to this day.

As someone who works as a full time economic development professional I can tell you with complete certainty that the money would be better spent on grants to local small businesses, new schools, community centers, local infrastructure or, yes, long distance bus service.

I get it, you believe in the mode. Montana winters are really really bad. I believe in passenger rail as much as anyone else here. But I can tell you very plainly and simply that the North Coast Hiawatha is as dead as any proposal ever made. The problem is that the railroad is gone, probably forever. Even worse, so are the people.

I would give a lot for a Thruway bus in my community. It would help tremendously. There are funding pools out there which could pay for it but they go elsewhere. You could get these in Montana communities formerly served by the North Coast Hiawatha. You're basically back at square one. It's back to the covered wagon and Wells Fargo Express except in this case it's the coachliner on the interstate.

Your communities have a real chance of getting bus service. Mine are a much longer shot. The longer people keep talking about rail the easier it is for others to stall on bus service.

[mtuandrew]

As I mentioned prior, the bus is already there (in the North Coast Hiawatha route) c/o Jefferson Lines. I don’t know what the demand is.

If there is considerable demand for that bus route - sure, let’s take a closer look at the train. I’d even be willing to through-ticket with Jefferson Lines and let Amtrak do the long-haul service while the bus connects from Billings and Helena to Butte, Great Falls, Polson, and other off-rail towns. It’s unlikely at best that there’s demand though.

[eolesen]

Even if there is not much potential ridership for this route, it would still be serving rural communities....

At what cost?........

I'm getting the impression you don't actually pay taxes. If you did, you wouldn't be advocating for things this ridiculous.

[Tadman]

With rail transport comes the opportunity to develop small towns and cities into something larger and to develop it town's, state's, and nation's economy as people are able to easily transport there, which is why railroads helped develop the United States into the great nation it is to this day.

As someone who works as a full time economic development professional I can tell you with complete certainty that the money would be better spent on grants to local small businesses, new schools, community centers, local infrastructure or, yes, long distance bus service.

Agreed. If the Long Distance train were such a genius economic development tool, why haven't the towns along the Builder or Chief become a bit more thriving? Look to the historical data. It's erractic service connecting towns that don't want to be connected. The folks in Havre or Whitefish don't want to go to Chicago or Milwaukee or Portland very often but lots of them want to visit Bozeman, Helena, and Billings.

[gokeefe]

Agreed. If the Long Distance train were such a genius economic development tool, why haven't the towns along the Builder or Chief become a bit more thriving?

I think in fairness not losing the Empire Builder might be saving something "somewhere". But restoration on this route is absolutely not a serious economic development tool. There is no tourist demand and no regional urban terminals.

I do think the Sunset Limited could be eliminated with zero impact on communities served. Losing the Empire Builder would hurt. Losing the Sunset Limited is as close to a non-event as it gets for a route loss.

Kind of mystifying why Anderson chose to go after the Southwest Chief which had obvious political support across multiple states and not the Sunset Limited which seems a weak candidate at best for continued service.

Perhaps a lack of desire to stir up a hornets nest in Texas ...

The moment people in Montana start shouting for bus service is the moment things really begin to happen. Start a petition on change.org for bus service connecting to the Empire Builder and see what happens.

[bdawe]

weren't they going after the Chief because the Chief, lone among the LD network, has hundreds of miles of pretty-much Chief-only track?

[mtuandrew]

weren't they going after the Chief because the Chief, lone among the LD network, has hundreds of miles of pretty-much Chief-only track?

Yep, and Amtrak turned down BNSF’s offer to move entirely to the Southern Transcon.