North Coast Hiawatha - Big Sky Passenger Rail Authority (BSPRA)

[Station Aficionado]

To continue the diversion, do any of the San Joaquin trainsets make a roundtrip on the same day? I think that would be about 600 mi. total.

[ne plus ultra]

To continue the diversion, ...

Thanks to Mr. Norman and others who've added information. If the moderators deem appropriate, maybe they could carve this discussion out into a new topic.

I had assumed that turning a trainset on a long roundtrip would mean using two crews. I'd be surprised to hear that the maximum amount of time equipment could be kept on the road each day was as little as the maximum amount of time a person could work, particularly given the fact that LD trains are routinely and always kept on the road longer than the max hours for a crewperson. Perhaps current trips and distances don't lend themselves to maximum use of equipment in corridor service, but it seems like it'd be an important factor in looking for possible extensions/expansions of service. What can you do with little or no additional investment in equipment?

[delvyrails]

On this site about a year ago, we discussed what could be done to get more mileage out of existing equipment. There were many good suggestions. Trouble is that it's not relevant unless the extra miles run can be supported by more operating subsidies.

The exception would seem to be where service through end points can be combined so that the through service can use one fewer train set than the separate services (like through routing the Southwest Chief with the Capitol Limited). Even here, the saved equipment will stand still unless there is more money to operate it somewhere usefully.

[mtuandrew]

On this site about a year ago, we discussed what could be done to get more mileage out of existing equipment. There were many good suggestions. Trouble is that it's not relevant unless the extra miles run can be supported by more operating subsidies.

The exception would seem to be where service through end points can be combined so that the through service can use one fewer train set than the separate services (like through routing the Southwest Chief with the Capitol Limited). Even here, the saved equipment will stand still unless there is more money to operate it somewhere usefully.

This idea was tried for some time under Warrington, I believe, with Empire Builder and City of New Orleans trainsets being alternated from one service to another. Trouble was, they were running too much, with very little margin for delay or for repair. The idea was sound in that it allowed the Builder's equipment to thaw out, but in practice it didn't work as well.

[Gilbert B Norman]

This idea was tried for some time under Warrington, I believe, with Empire Builder and City of New Orleans trainsets being alternated from one service to another. Trouble was, they were running too much, with very little margin for delay or for repair. The idea was sound in that it allowed the Builder's equipment to thaw out, but in practice it didn't work as well.

..........resulting in more equipment lost at Bourbonnais than would otherwise have been the case.

[kmillard]

This idea was tried for some time under Warrington, I believe, with Empire Builder and City of New Orleans trainsets being alternated from one service to another. Trouble was, they were running too much, with very little margin for delay or for repair. The idea was sound in that it allowed the Builder's equipment to thaw out, but in practice it didn't work as well.

..........resulting in more equipment lost at Bourbonnais than would otherwise have been the case.

I remember the reference but you may want to refresh some novices. Bourbonnais was a derailment of the City of New Orleans as I recall in the mid 1990's. Was this a case where the Empire Builder and City trainsets were alternated shortening the cycle time?? Was the derailment attributed to a shortened service cycle??

[eazy521]

The derailment had to do with the train hitting a truck full of steel. Or the other way around. In any case a truck full of steel was involved. I don't recall Amtrak being at fault at all for the accident or maintenance cycles having anything to do with it.

[David Benton]

I'm pretty sure Mr Norman means the consist would have been longer than if it was just a dedicated CONO consist .

[grumpyoldman]

There is a grass roots effort in Montana to have the North Coast Hiawatha service restored in Southern Montana. From an article in the Billings Gazette:

MISSOULA — A petition urging Congress to restore the defunct North Coast Hiawatha passenger rail route — which formerly ran through Missoula, Helena, Bozeman, Billings, Glendive and Miles City, among others cities — is now online for people to sign.

Students at the University of Montana, along with help from the Montana Public Interest Research Group (MontPIRG), are working to rallying support from students at 25 other colleges and universities along the passenger train route, which stretches from Seattle to Chicago

Here is a link to the petition.

https://www.montpirgstudents.org/action ... t-hiawatha

John

[MudLake]

Is this Exhibit A for the notion this country is going down the tubes? It seems everyone wants a handout now.

[Gilbert B Norman]

To "echo" Mr. Mudlake's thought, I have to wonder to what extent the advocates have reviewed the study mandated under PRIIA '08. If they are to do so, they would find that the costs of such would far outweigh what limited benefits such restoration would provide. If these various campus-level public-interest groups are truly "pro bono publico", they would withdraw that petition.

Quite simply, it was one thing to restore the service during June 1971 after barely a one month hiatus, but with the passage of now over thirty years, the physical facilities and the institutions such as a Book of Rules covering passenger train operation and Operating Officers familiar with same in order to effectively supervise Train and Engine crews, are long gone and would have to rebuilt from scratch.

For "one a day', it just aint worth it".

[Pacific 2-3-1]

The historian in me (NOT the freight-railroad stockholder) tells me that if the good folk of Billings and Missoula MT, etc. want it badly enough, some sort of Amtrak train (or trains) will, in time, once again operate on the former Northern Pacific Railway.

Is it beneficial or cost-effective? I can't answer that, because there are different economic theories which could be advanced for or against.

But the rails are still there, and they're in good enough shape to carry passenger trains at the average speed of other Amtrak trains elsewhere in the country.

[jp1822]

What about a day train that would be sort of a stub-end service running from like Spokane to a point in southern Montana, then linking up with the Empire Builder in Spokane - perhaps as a through service of sorts. More cars for Spokane to interchange (i.e. the Portland section and Seattle section of the Empire Builder). I would use Spokane as origination/termination point just because it is sort of a more "service" base for Amtrak. As Mr. Norman mentiones, re-establishing the entire route of the North Coast Hiawatha is going to be a daunting task at this point!

[Station Aficionado]

I think you'd have to revamp the entire EB schedule to accomplish this, given the current early a.m. arrival times in Spokane. I agree with Mr. Norman that it's tough to see a revival of the NCH at the present time. I think there are some possibilities for service enhancement on the east and west ends (Chicago-St. Paul and Spokane-Seattle/Portland), but it would probably require something like $5 or $6 gas prices for Bismark and Billings to see a train again.

[mtuandrew]

I'm a bit surprised no one else has mentioned that we have 8 pages of discussion on the NCH's possible restoration: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 46&t=65981

Short summary of the congressionally-mandated Amtrak report: BNSF wants to charge a ridiculous amount to upgrade its former NP trackage, unlike Montana RailLink which either has fewer, shorter trains or more aversion to the government trough. Despite such, a restored NCH would serve the populous areas of North Dakota, Montana and south-central Washington State that have no service now, and is projected to have a 56% farebox recovery ratio which ranks highly among LDs.