Canadian Border Crossing General Topic

[NS VIA FAN]

What exactly makes the Whirlpool Bridge so critical? Seems to me the train could easily be routed over the International Bridge in Buffalo instead. Niagara Falls would lose its stop but then it would still have two trains per day, and ridership is not so high anyway. If I am not mistaken that would potentially allow for a stop in Hamilton which would probably do more for ridership than NF.

If the Whirlpool bridge was to be abandoned the Maple Leaf could still serve Niagara Falls (Ont). It would then back out of the station a mile or so to Clifton then proceed on the CN line to Black Rock/Buffalo. Probably just as fast as using CSX from Niagara Falls (NY) to Buffalo.

http://www.proximityissues.ca/Maps/RAC-2004-Niagara.pdf

There is also the alternative as you say running via Hamilton on the CP (xTH&B) route.

BTW.....Niagara Falls now has 7 trains a day on summer weekends to/from Toronto. GO Transit has 4 trains per day, each way and VIA, 3 per day, each way.

[NS VIA FAN]

CN no longer uses the whirlpool bridge. amtrak is the only user and the owner of the top bridge (some bridge company) wants to abandoned it if amtrak does not pay for repairs sense they're the only users of the bridge.

Bridge is owned by the Niagara Falls Bridge Commission. The lower deck of the bridge is used by vecicles and would not be abandoned.

http://niagarafallsbridges.com/what_is_nfbc.php3

[ramonesfan]

CN no longer uses the whirlpool bridge. amtrak is the only user and the owner of the top bridge (some bridge company) wants to abandoned it if amtrak does not pay for repairs sense they're the only users of the bridge.

Bridge is owned by the Niagara Falls Bridge Commission. The lower deck of the bridge is used by vecicles and would not be abandoned.

http://niagarafallsbridges.com/what_is_nfbc.php3

i said top bridge or upper deak. they want to abandon the upper (rail) part of the bridge if amtrak does not pay for maintenance.

[NS VIA FAN]

i said top bridge or upper deak. they want to abandon the upper (rail) part of the bridge if amtrak does not pay for maintenance.

Yes.....and I clarified that the lower deck would remain and still be used by vehicles.

[buddah]

upper deck may not be in use after friday, for an undetermined amount of time...(look for post on possible VIA rail strike)

Back to the crossing issue I would love to see this plan work out in favor of the passengers to save and hour off trip time, however the fact remains this is a suggestion offered to Canada Customs to not delay the train at the border. Canada Has been reluctant so far in the Use or implementation of any of there Custom services to be carried out on US soil. That's one major hurdle in the proposition for the International to be brought back ( under a new name and route) It was addressed by my research group for both Customs to share a structural building but not facilities at MCS in Detroit if a possible train was to run via the MC tunnel, Giving both agencies walk over easy from one agencies to the next to verify a persons data. However Canada customs was reluctant and advised us they rater have there own facility on Canadian soil. However with the request of an open arms relationship coming from the Feds ( and not Amtrak and a research group) this might have Canada customs more incite full of there operations being located on US soil. This may be the foot in the door we all need.

[Suburban Station]

My two trips on the Maple Leaf it was two hours in each direction at the border.

[Rockingham Racer]

My two trips on the Maple Leaf it was two hours in each direction at the border.

One word for that: ridiculuous.

[buddah]

My two trips on the Maple Leaf it was two hours in each direction at the border.

One word for that: ridiculuous.

I will tell no lie ! I have encountered that myself as well on the Maple leaf and the retired International. 2 hrs in each direction not to mention we were already behind schedule on a few of those 2 hr occasional custom stops. Simply ridiculous is correct. Id like to have it limited to 30 mins or less no matter what the situation, full pre clearance unfortunately would be needed .

[AgentSkelly]

It is my understanding that doing the customs & immigration inspection while "in motion" is a practice that is no longer recommended and some of my sources in the Federal Inspection Services say that even its banned per suggestion with the World Customs Organization. I'm not sure of the official reason, but what I do know about security theater is that the train while in motion is not considered secure unless its in the control of customs & immigration officers directly.

However, the Maple Leaf has a interesting situation as it provides both domestic and international service on both sides of the border. Back in the day, a train like that was no problem for customs as their primary purpose was revenue from import duty and taxes. There was also the option that the local inspection team had where they could not inspect all passengers if they felt there was no need. However, times have changed of course thanks to some punks (ha).

The best situation I think for the Maple Leaf would be since its really on paper due to the joint operation two separate trains (97/98 and 64/63) just setup a regular customs & immigration building next to the platforms at NFL and NFS where passengers get off the train and clear customs & immigration then get back on the train. I can guarantee you that in a standard customs hall, that 2 hour window will be cut down to 1 hour. Also, a NEXUS kiosk can be installed. This also enables the idea that other VIA and Amtrak trains could meet to exchange passengers and more opportunities for people to travel across the border.

and like I say for the 2000th, time, the Adirondack needs to the dump St Lambert and be converted to preclearence at MTL.

[neroden]

It is my understanding that doing the customs & immigration inspection while "in motion" is a practice that is no longer recommended and some of my sources in the Federal Inspection Services say that even its banned per suggestion with the World Customs Organization. I'm not sure of the official reason, but what I do know about security theater is that the train while in motion is not considered secure unless its in the control of customs & immigration officers directly.

Absolute lunacy. Doing the customs and immigration inspection while in motion has been standard practice worldwide since trains started running, was done constantly in Europe prior to the EU border abolition (Schengen agreement) and is still done in the parts of Europe without Schengen. (Except England, and the borders where gauge changes are made). They did this when the trains connected countries with manned, armed, fenced borders. I believe it's still done on trains to Switzerland (and they are no slouches about security).

Perhaps the real difference is that in Europe it's possible to hire customs and immigration officers who are also trained railroad men, qualified to run trains, climb on and off locomotives, order engineers around, etc....? And in North America our passenger railroads are just so decrepit that we don't have that kind of supply of trained railroad police for immigration to hire from?

Given the length of undefended, unguardable border with Canada, we should seriously just sign a North American version of Schengen and get rid of border controls altogether. But that would make too much sense.

However, the Maple Leaf has a interesting situation as it provides both domestic and international service on both sides of the border.

Unfortunately the Montrealer provides such service on the US side of the border, and so does the Cascades. With so few stops in Canada, and meaningful domestic traffic in the US, I think on-train clearance northbound, after the last stop in the US and before arrival in Canada, is the only way to handle either train sensibly as long as we have border controls at all.

The Maple Leaf may end up being two separate trains with separate consists, and a walk-across pair of customs stations on a *pedestrian* bridge (unpack your luggage, drag it through, pack it in the next train). Given the current speed of customs, the fact that each side independently makes sense as a train, and the problems with the bridge, it would probably be much, much faster, probably faster even than on-board checking (and having an extra pedestrian crossing sure wouldn't hurt Niagara Falls either).

[george matthews]

I believe it's still done on trains to Switzerland (and they are no slouches about security).

Switzerland has now joined Schengen. In the past I took a sleeper across the border (from Hamburg). One gave the passport to the conductor and he showed it to the border inspectors).
But I can remember less satisfactory border crossings. I took a sleeper from Krakow to Budapest (after the end of Communism) and was woken up on entering Slovakia, and again when leaving and crossing into Hungary. Both countries are now in Schengen.

And I remember seeing in 1981 someone taken off a train on the border from Germany to the Netherlands, with full police ceremonial.

And I myself had taken a sleeper from Berlin to Warsaw. I was just setting out my sleeping bag when the immigration came on and turfed me off the train for not having a visa. That was the year after the Berlin Wall came down and East Germany had already joined west Germany. I found myself in Frankfurt an der Oder at midnight. I took a creaky old east German train to the outskirts of Berlin (Erkner), and slept in a parked Stadtbahn car until dawn. I was glad to get to a B&B in Dresden for the night and slept a long time there.

(Border controls can still be re-instated for certain reasons of emergency. Normally there are no border posts on roads any more. The Irish frontier shows the most spectacular change. There used to be army posts and a cage of wire fencing; now there is nothing at all.)

[NellieBly]

Rode a sleeper from Bucharest to Budapest back in 2004, and was waked at the Romanian/Hungarian border for passport inspection. However, the inspection was done on the train. I didn't even have to get out of bed.

Back in 1992, went from Paris to Madrid on a Talgo, and despite the break of gauge, no interruptions during the night. Gave our passports to the conductor, and border crossing was all taken care of.

Even when crossing from West Germany to East Germany back in 1976, didn't have to get off the train. Train was stopped at Potsdam (outside Berlin) for customs inspection, but the East German Volkspolezei came through the train.

In fact, the only time I've ever had to get off a train for a border crossing inspection was at Hat Yai, Thailand on a through train from Bangkok to Butterworth in Malaysia. There we all had to troop into the customs office in the station, fill out forms and show passports, then get back on board again.

So I don't know where this nonsense about the World Customs Organization not allowing inspections on trains comes from. It most certainly has not been my experience, and I've been a few places.

Further, pre-Amtrak customs was *always* done on-board a moving train (and my experience includes the Montrealer, the D&H Montreal Limited, and the CN/Grand Trunk International Limited as well as trains from Minneapolis to Winnipeg and Seattle to Vancouver.

[Jishnu]

I do not think it is accurate to say that border inspection is done worldwide on running trains.

Border inspections in Southeast Asia are all off train. You have to get off the train with your bag and baggage go through customs and immigration and then reboard the train. Thi procedure is followed for example between Singapore and Malaysia at Johore Bahru, Malaysia and Thailand at Padang Besar, India and Bangladesh at Gede and Darshana.

In many other places, e.g. Finland Russia border at Vainaikkala/Vyborg you stay on the train but the inspection is done while the train is stationary at Vanaikkala and Vyborg.

[george matthews]

So I don't know where this nonsense about the World Customs Organization not allowing inspections on trains comes from. It most certainly has not been my experience, and I've been a few places.

Actually, I have never heard of this body. I doubt if it has any authority, if it exists, but possibly just passes information about techniques.

But when there were border checks on European trains it was always on board. Going from Germany to Netherlands the Dutch immigration man was followed by the Grenswissel (money changer). Another chore we no longer experience.

Crossing from Botswana to South Africa Europeans could sit in the train while the blacks had to go through a cage.

When Eurostar was inaugurated the plan was to have on-train inspections but someone, probably in the Home Office, put a stop to that, and so the train can only stop at stations surrounded by a secure fence and the full procedure, which is expensive for intermediate stations with only a few trains a day. It also prevented the North of London service.

[AgentSkelly]

I would like to clarify, I only was told that WCO only recommended that all member agencies stop doing on-board inspections. Since its a recommendation, its not taken like a mandate and obviously some people have commented that its still done elsewhere.

I've sent an inquiry to US CBP about what is the official US policy for the practice just for clarification.

WCO is a UN agency along the lines of ICAO, UPU, etc.