Amtrak Desert Wind Los Angeles LA - Las Vegas NV Past Present Future

[Arborwayfan]

On topic this time . Pennsyfan and others: you say a private company could get private money and buy better trains, better stations, and more frequent service than Amtrak. That assumes that there are investors who think they can make money investing in passenger trains, and also that they are right. Amtrak can lose money -- ie it can get a government operating subsidy. Private companies can't go on losing money forever. Do you think that if the investments were made to get fast, fancy, frequent trains from LA to Las Vegas, they would draw enough customers to pay all costs and provide attractive dividends to investors? (I have no idea if that is true or false, myself.)

[east point]

electricron: This is off topic for this thread but ---

It as you say partial delays occur from some commuter trains however let us look at the many slow sections of just one segment of Newark <> North PHL. There are three areas of slow sections. 1. the section from Newark - Newark airport. 2. The Elizabeth "S" curve. 3. Frankford junction to North PHL. That is a total of less than 20 miles but has significant slow orders. The 4 miles North PHL - PHL really cannot be speeded up. Total miles NWK - PHL ~ 81 miles.

The 81 miles needs easing the Elizabeth curves and the Frankford junction - PHN compound curves for steady 160 MPH speeds. As well the CAT needs complete rework to constant tension from EWR - PHN . That would allow the new Acela-2s to meet their 160 MPH capabilities. That would be approximately 35 -38 minutes EWR <> PHL for the Acela -2s. Accelerating and slowing. So to be conservative that would cut the times about 15 minutes for all Acela-2s trips no matter what for the same stops.

Will not cover the NYP - NWK 10 miles as that gets complicated with the present slow orders. But with the elimination of these slow sections that would save all Acela passenger 15 minutes and Regional trains what? 8 - 10 minutes? That of course if the trains do not have to shift from the inside tracks to the outside tracks over 100 MPH CP? Can you imagine the time savings for each passenger especially those that travel over the NYP - PHL multiple times a year ? Total passenger minutes saved will be in the Billions. Then you have the ability of some equipment to make another maybe half trip if equipment turn can be reduced ? An of course the same for T&E and OBS personnel. LD trains will have the same savings.

One unintended consequence might be longer dwell times due to more passengers on each train. This poster would focus on this section as it Is the heaviest in both passenger numbers and trains for Amtrak of the whole NEC. But additional planning and rebuilding PHL WASH will sav not s many passenger minutes but trip times will be reducer further finally getting NYP <> WASH close to or at 2 hours.

[Jeff Smith]

Opened after a cool-down.

Amtrak does have a "station" in Las Vegas: https://www.amtrak.com/stations/lvs and https://www.amtrak.com/stations/lvt LOL.

Not much going on with Amtrak: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Vegas ... ture_plans

And an older article from: The Las Vegas Review Journal

Fair-use Quote:

Las Vegas’ roots as a railroad town can be traced back more than a century, but passengers haven’t arrived here by train in nearly two decades.

Several of you have called or sent e-mails asking why Amtrak doesn’t stop in Las Vegas, even though the tracks are in place.

Amtrak’s Desert Wind route ran from 1978 to 1997 between Los Angeles and Salt Lake City with several stops, including a station at 100 S. Main St., behind the Plaza downtown.

The shuttered, worn-down depot is still there, bypassed daily by lengthy cargo trains rumbling to nearby warehouses. Looking real close, you might spot the faint outlines of Amtrak signs and logos that were removed long ago from the structure.

Desert Wind offered daily service until 1995, when it was reduced to three times per week and ultimately killed two years later due to waning demand and cuts in federal subsidies.

Part of the problem was that the train trip from Los Angeles to Las Vegas lasted up to seven hours, taking much longer than a casual four-hour drive. At the time, Amtrak’s fares were about the same as an hourlong flight aboard low-cost airlines flying out of Southern California’s airports, making the train ride pretty useless.

Amtrak does not seem to have any current plans and there are current private plans: Brightline LA-LV

I may find a Desert Wind topic to fold this into. It's import to note that the Desert Wind was a SECTION of the California Zephyr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Wi ... estoration

Lets please be realistic, and not get into a pissing contest. It's fun to talk about. As a wise old sage told me once: "It's Railroads. It's fun!"

[John_Perkowski]

The article in the LV Review Journal Mr Smith quoted gets to the crux of the issue.

Even I-15 is faster than Union Pacific and Amtrak.

The vector of advance for rail needs to be faster than the vector of advance for auto or bus. Period

[Tadman]

Not necessarily.

A rail solution could be say 10-30% slower than car and still work provided users got their safer or easier. Given the 20+ daily flights you cited, and 80% of the metro area is closer by car than air, quite a few people are okay with hacking trafic for 1-2 hours, 1 hour at airport dead time, 45 minutes in air, and cab ride to hotel. What's wrong with a 6 hour train ride? It's solid work/play time that could result in high-dollar beverages being sold and gambling machines operating once you're in Nevada state lines.

[Greg Moore]

I prefer faster trains, but, even slower trains can often be effective for me, hence why I often call train time "effective time". I can sleep on the train. The cops and my fellow passengers prefer I don't do that while driving. I can do work on a train (I can't do that while riding in a car less I have a repeat of my lunch in reverse, the drivers don't like that).

That said, make it a winner by having slots on the train and some blackjack tables that open up once the train hits the state border

[John_Perkowski]

Messrs Dunville and Moore,

I’ve been arguing for a rolling casino for at least ten years.

[Backshophoss]

Better chance if you bring back the desert Wind-Pioneer combined,LAUS- Las Vegas-Salt Lake City(connect with CZ) -Ogden--Boise-
Portland.

[electricron]

Messrs Dunville and Moore,

I’ve been arguing for a rolling casino for at least ten years.

Have you ever though what would happen as a consequence of having gambling on the train in California going to Las Vegas?
Once one exception is made to California's gambling laws, then the native tribes will be able to argue in court to allow gambling on their reservations, and you kill Las Vegas as reservation casinos on the east coast have killed Atlantic City casinos, and you kill the train allowing gambling to Las Vegas you allowed. You'll be shooting yourself in the foot.

Keep advocating for your own casino on a train and ultimate destruction if you wish. Wiser heads will continue to say no!

[mtuandrew]

Ron: gambling is already allowed on California reservations under Federal law, and also the posters above had explicitly mentioned opening the slots in only Nevada.

Also worth remembering the X-Train proposal.

[electricron]

Ron: gambling is already allowed on California reservations under Federal law, and also the posters above had explicitly mentioned opening the slots in only Nevada.

If you are only going to allow gambling on the train in Nevada and not in California, why?
Primm, which straddles the state line, is just 44 miles from downtown Las Vegas (driving time of 47 minutes averaging 56 mph).
Downtown Los Angeles is 227 miles from Primm (driving time of 3 hours and 41 minutes averaging 61 mph).
A high speed train averaging 120 mph can zip through those 44 miles in just 22 minutes.

Do you really believe the train can make any profits with just 22 minutes of legal gambling while paying employee wages for the entire trip?

[mtuandrew]

Ron: many years ago while studying abroad, my class took a trans-Baltic ferry between Helsinki and Tallinn. The trip across the Gulf of Finland only takes 3 hours (give or take), but the ship leaves mid-afternoon and arrives early the next morning; reason being, it anchors in international waters off Estonia where the passengers eat, gamble, and drink until the room goes fuzzy - not that I’d know that last part Everyone stumbles off the ship in the morning and spends a pleasant day in beautiful Tallinn and often buys a carful of liquor and other goods before taking the afternoon ship back to Finland - which miraculously only takes 3 hours

Point being, a gamblers’ train has this option. The X-Train syndicate had an option on some gallery cars that it intended to use as gambling parlors. Presumably the bar and buffet would be open from LAUS for a noon departure, along with California state lottery sales. Four hours later when the train reached the Nevada border and a siding, the slots and tables would light up. Park there for another four hours, let the house win for a while, and you’ve covered your fuel and staff costs. (Trackage and equipment would need to be covered by tickets, with a little left over for investors.)

I don’t know whether this is actually a sustainable business model, but someone thought highly enough for it to be a semi-serious venture.

[trainviews]

It would take a brave civil engineer to design and oversee construction of a tunnel through the middle of the San Andreas Fault, especially when Cajon Pass is right there and still has enough room for a two-track HSR line.

Well California HSR already has plans for that (even if it never comes to fruition for other reasons), and it has already been done with the tunnel under the Bosporus in Istanbul, Turkey. It crosses a fault line every bit as violent as the San Andreas. Add water on top...

[Tadman]

This evening I’ve been watching Richard Hammond’s special on the Japanese bullet train. At 40 minutes in it discusses the Japanese earthquake warning system for high speed trains.

https://youtu.be/xA4aaSzqT9s

[electricron]

Not necessarily.

A rail solution could be say 10-30% slower than car and still work provided users got their safer or easier. Given the 20+ daily flights you cited, and 80% of the metro area is closer by car than air, quite a few people are okay with hacking trafic for 1-2 hours, 1 hour at airport dead time, 45 minutes in air, and cab ride to hotel. What's wrong with a 6 hour train ride? It's solid work/play time that could result in high-dollar beverages being sold and gambling machines operating once you're in Nevada state lines.

Which is it, 10% or 30% slower than by car?
Travel Map suggests the driving time between Los Angeles and Las Vegas is 4 hours and 57 minutes.
Amtrak's Southwest Chief takes 3 hours and 51 minutes to travel 156 rail miles between Los Angeles and Barstow. It's another 157 miles between Barstow and Las Vegas. The Chief averages 40.5 mph for that initial 156 miles, the worse case could assume the same time and average speed over the last 157 miles? A total elapse time time of 7 hours and 42 minutes. Let's assume a better case of a 10 mph increase in average speeds over the last 157 miles, using the tracks basically as they are today. Some math follows: 157 miles / 50.5 mph = 3 hours and 6 minutes. 3 hours and 6 minutes + 3 hours and 51 minutes = 6 hours and 57 minutes. Worse case compared to highways = 7 hours and 42 minutes / 4 hours and 57 minutes x 100 = 462/297 = 155% Better case compared to highways = 6 hours and 57 minutes / 4 hours and 57 minutes x 100 = 417/297 = 140% To even reach a goal of being 30% slower, the train would have to average 60.7 mph over the last 157 miles. More math = 397 x 1.3 = 386 minutes total or 6 hours and 26 minutes. 386 minutes (LA-LV) - 231 minutes (LA-Barstow) = 155 minutes (Barstow-LV) or 2 hours and 35 minutes. 157 miles/ 155 minutes x 60 minutes /hour = 60.7 mph. Basically another increase of average train speed of 10 mph over the last 157 miles between Barstow and LV, making it the best case. Could a train going at maximum allowed speeds make that 157 miles at an average 60.7 mph? Per http://www.trainweb.org/brettrw/uprr/ci ... masub.html
20 mph around 3.4 miles
30 mph around 1.3 miles
40 mph around 14.5 miles
45 mph around 2.5 miles
60 mph around 24 miles
70 mph around 100 miles
Another 15 or so miles the trains are either allowed to accelerate or decelerate between posted speed limits.
Keeping it simple, let's assume all those 15 miles are above 60 mph but not 70 mph, so an average of 65 mph.
20 x 3.4 = 68
30 x 1.3 = 39
40 x 14.5 = 580
45 x 2.5 = 112.5
60 x 24 = 1440
65 x 15 = 975
70 x 100 = 7000
60 x 160.7** = 9642
Note ** = sum of estimated miles for allowed speeds (not actual distances)
9642-7000-975-1440-112.5-580-39-68 = -572
That negative number means trains going as fast as allowed can not achieve 60 mph average speeds over the Barstow to LV route. A final positive result would have meant they could.
Passenger trains are often slowed by freight train congestions, so there is little chance this train could maintain the maximum speeds allowed over the entire route. So a slow train between LA and LV over existing UP tracks can not achieve speeds within 30% lower than by driving by car. So do you still think it could be competitive?
I strongly believe for trains to be competitive with planes it has to have an elapse time of 3 hours or less (75% market share). At 4 hours, trains can achieve 50% market share with planes. At 7 or 8 hours, can the train get a significant market share against driving at 5 hours?