Freight "through" NYP

[mtuandrew]

Trash and construction debris will always go via CSX to Selkirk, there's always something that could start a fire.
Believe FDNY considers trash as Haz=Mat for tunnel crossings

Hm okay. So going from that, here’s some suspect or FDNY-prohibited loads:
-Hazmat (radioactive, chemicals like ammonia, molten metal, oxidizers)
-construction debris
-trash
-untreated lumber
-petroleum products, even heavy crude (see Lac-Megantic, though that was high in volatiles)
-locomotive fuel tenders aka anything outside of a locomotive’s own fuel tank
-natural gas and propane
-fertilizer
-paper
-coiled metal
-excessively large batteries (locomotive battery tender if lithium)
-coal, probably
-oversize loads
-military equipment traveling with armament

What’s that leave us for a PSNY Tunnel?
-food in boxcars
-perishable beverages like juice & beer in refrigerated boxcars
-grain in hoppers
-limestone and cement in hoppers, and finished concrete & masonry products
-metal ore, scrap metal, processed metal stock and finished metal products
-gravel & construction fill
-some construction materials like treated lumber and cement siding
-consumer goods in containers
-plastic pellets?
-autos, trucks, and military equipment without fuel or other flammables/explosives

So - is that enough to make a tunnel worth it? Trash is the big commodity leaving NYC and Long Island, so without trash shipments such a tunnel would rely on inbound containers, food, cars, and construction goods.

Perhaps PANYNJ should issue an RFI for two bidirectional rail ferries of 100+ car capacity, with four 25-car or five 20-car tracks, another RFI for rebuilding Bay Ridge to handle that kind of capacity, and a third for a DBOM contract for the same. (China State Railways would eat that stuff up tbh.) Also, the Port Authority should consider chopping the ferry rate in half or less. This is an area where public subsidy benefits everyone.

[Jeff Smith]

Trash is also not time-sensitive, and outgoing, not inbound. So there's no need to NOT send it via CSX/Selkirk.

[DutchRailnut]

to many freight cars that will not fit under the catenary in NY Penn max car height is 14' 7" it will leave out just about every box car, any bulkhead flats for lumber etc etc .

[DutchRailnut]

any freight at night would only impede track maintenance , its just not worth it.

[nkloudon]

At least a couple of attempts have been made to route freight thru Penn Station. The main drawback is the stiff grades through the Hudson tunnels.

[STrRedWolf]

Hm okay. So going from that, here’s some suspect or FDNY-prohibited loads:
...

Basically anything that is easily flammable or explosive.

What’s that leave us for a PSNY Tunnel?
-food in boxcars
-perishable beverages like juice & beer in refrigerated boxcars
-grain in hoppers

Nope, grain is technically "easily flammable", and if those hoppers aren't covered, can likely shift and start a fuel-air explosion. (Yeah, highly unlikely but given the above, I think we should err in caution)

-limestone and cement in hoppers, and finished concrete & masonry products
-metal ore, scrap metal, processed metal stock and finished metal products
-gravel & construction fill
-some construction materials like treated lumber and cement siding
-consumer goods in containers
-plastic pellets?
-autos, trucks, and military equipment without fuel or other flammables/explosives

So - is that enough to make a tunnel worth it? Trash is the big commodity leaving NYC and Long Island, so without trash shipments such a tunnel would rely on inbound containers, food, cars, and construction goods.

Perhaps PANYNJ should issue an RFI for two bidirectional rail ferries of 100+ car capacity, with four 25-car or five 20-car tracks, another RFI for rebuilding Bay Ridge to handle that kind of capacity, and a third for a DBOM contract for the same. (China State Railways would eat that stuff up tbh.) Also, the Port Authority should consider chopping the ferry rate in half or less. This is an area where public subsidy benefits everyone.

It won't be a rail ferry. It would be a shipping barge. And the railroad would be cut out of the entire process.

Consider this: An ISO standard shipping container is 40' long, 8' wide, and 8.5' tall. These are shipped everywhere by train, ship, and truck to distribution centers. Very likely NYC distribution centers will have these placed on a flat-bed truck for a short haul before being broken open and emptied out.

• Food/beverages would be shrink-wrapped on pallets and stuffed into the containers.
• Grain would be bagged and stuffed.
• Consumer goods would also be shrink-wrapped and stuffed.
• Plastic pellets would be bagged and stuffed.
• Automotives are secured inside the container.

That leaves construction material, which is dependent on how much building is going on... which isn't a lot. Not enough to justify a tunnel let alone a train. It'll be trucked in... and it'll be going over one of several bridges and likely through Staten Island.

That said, you want to get trash OUT of NYC quicker? Barge it to a rail yard in New Jersey.

[WhartonAndNorthern]

Believe me I thought about it ages ago: can we pay for the tunnel construction by making Amtrak swallow their pride and allow freights even if it means derailing trash before morning rush etc.

And the answer is NO.

AAR Plate C is the dimensional standard for near-universal interchange freight cars. Can't meet that, it's not worth running freight. The older Plate B (truly universal) isn't worth mentioning and it's still higher than Penn clearances. Plate C is over 15 feet above the rail. Plate F (even better is) 17 feet above the rail. Plate F accommodates your high cube boxcars and I think your trailers on flat cars. Lots of grants are given out to improve clearances on short lines to Plate F. Even the NY Connecting Railroad has one chokepoint that won't meet Plate F for cars in and out of Long Island. The high cubes have to go via car float.

So Penn won't meet clearances for general freight. What about intermodal? You're certainly not getting double stacks through or TOFCs. And single stacked well cars which are already common (Baltimore, Moffat Tunnel, Hoosac Tunnel) scrape against third rail.

So NO Freight via Penn

Second of all the Selkirk Hurdle isn't that big of a deal. Why? Because so little freight moves North-South or from New Jersey to Long Island. The bulk of the traffic is East-West interchange which usually means through Chicago. Shipping CSX? It's going to Selkirk anyway. Shipping NS? OK the Pittsburgh Line to Harrisburg Line to Lehigh Line doesn't work, but NS via Buffalo and Mechanicsville (ex-NKP, ex-EL, ex-D&H) for a CSX handoff does.

I see no volume justifications for freight through Penn or that pie in the sky doublestack cross harbor tunnel and intermodal yard in Maspeth. I'd rather see:

1. All the stops pulled out for getting Plate F clearance and TOFC to Long Island over the NY Connecting Railroad. Have fun! The remaining chokepoint is in a cemetery (I think). Still cheaper than that unnecessary (IMHO) two track doublestack tunnel
2. a third rail free intermodal single-stack well car route to NYC and Long Island. Even if that means Hudson Line to Beacon Line to Danbury Line to the New Haven Line to the Connecting Railroad

[David Benton]

Grain is only considered flammable when been milled, maybe slightly when been loaded/unloaded. The chances of it making enough dust just bybmoving in a car are near impossible I would think.

[bostontrainguy]

So Penn won't meet clearances for general freight. What about intermodal? You're certainly not getting double stacks through or TOFCs. And single stacked well cars which are already common (Baltimore, Moffat Tunnel, Hoosac Tunnel) scrape against third rail.

So NO Freight via Penn

You've conveniently forgot about containers on flat cars which would probably be the exact configuration used.

[bostontrainguy]

Maybe we can get a little creative here. How about testing some of those dormant RoadRailers with "Super Single" tires. Would that eliminate the third rail contact problem?

tires.jpg (131.53 KiB) Viewed 833 times

Edit: Actually let me take this one step further. You unload containers in New Jersey. Put them on modified RailRunner trailers. Send them through Manhattan to a flat unloading area in Queens say at Wheelspur Yard (plenty of room). And you have a pretty basic inexpensive build out and a pretty simple operation.

[Tadman]

So Penn won't meet clearances for general freight. What about intermodal? You're certainly not getting double stacks through or TOFCs. And single stacked well cars which are already common (Baltimore, Moffat Tunnel, Hoosac Tunnel) scrape against third rail.

So NO Freight via Penn

You've conveniently forgot about containers on flat cars which would probably be the exact configuration used.

That's a tough sell. You either have to transload them in Jersey or PA to double stack or run them cross-country COFC, neither of which is more efficient than a truck to Jersey and double stack to wherever.

[bostontrainguy]

So Penn won't meet clearances for general freight. What about intermodal? You're certainly not getting double stacks through or TOFCs. And single stacked well cars which are already common (Baltimore, Moffat Tunnel, Hoosac Tunnel) scrape against third rail.

So NO Freight via Penn

You've conveniently forgot about containers on flat cars which would probably be the exact configuration used.

That's a tough sell. You either have to transload them in Jersey or PA to double stack or run them cross-country COFC, neither of which is more efficient than a truck to Jersey and double stack to wherever.

Isn't it more like whatever is more efficient to get from Jersey to Queens/Long Island than putting rail cars on a carfloat?

[Tadman]

So Penn won't meet clearances for general freight. What about intermodal? You're certainly not getting double stacks through or TOFCs. And single stacked well cars which are already common (Baltimore, Moffat Tunnel, Hoosac Tunnel) scrape against third rail.

So NO Freight via Penn

You've conveniently forgot about containers on flat cars which would probably be the exact configuration used.

That's a tough sell. You either have to transload them in Jersey or PA to double stack or run them cross-country COFC, neither of which is more efficient than a truck to Jersey and double stack to wherever.

Isn't it more like whatever is more efficient to get from Jersey to Queens/Long Island than putting rail cars on a carfloat?

That's a good question. I think as of now, truck is probably most efficient because of the way infrastructure stands after 50 years of float/rail downgrading. If we were in 1950, and all the pre-conrail carriers had a bunch of floats running around, that might make more sense. A carfloat every thirty minutes is a good option. Waiting on 1-2/day? Not so good. Re-stacking in Jersey or PA? Not so good.

So you have the collapse of the rail freight infrastructure north-east of the Hudson (including Long Island and Staten), then many businesses move out because the area is non business friendly (including poor transport resources), making it not worth rebuilding anyway. Ergo what's left uses trucks.

Compare what we see leaving metro NYC - garbage, construction stuff, etc... with freight in other areas. Lots of steel, bulk commodities, general commerce items feeding factories. NYC is basically a white collar place now.

[Pensyfan19]

With this discussion of freight running through NYP, I recall the Ringling Bros Circus train passing through Penn on a few occasions, as some of the train's consist would be considered freight cars with containers and flat cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL9hoZRXhnU

Also, I think I remember hearing from a proposal, not sure if it was from T-REX (Trans Regional Express) or somewhere else, but I think (don't quote me on this) that some freight railroads are investing in dual mode diesel-electric (I think I remember hearing third rail) diesel locomotives to run some freight trains possibly through Penn.

[WhartonAndNorthern]

You've conveniently forgot about containers on flat cars which would probably be the exact configuration used.

No I haven't. However:

1. What is the height of a loaded container on a flat car? I did not take the time to research it but I'll edit when I know. I realize that there are two kinds: the 89' flats* formerly used in intermodal service that still haul trash, and the articulated spine cars (53' and 57') presently used.
   Certainly the trash containers on flats are under Plate F since they get off Long Island on CSX via Hellgate Bridge. However since nobody's shipping containers to Long Island it makes me wonder why aren't they?
2. Railroads are setup to "block" cars with containers going to the same destination (e.g. BNSF in Los Angeles will load all New York-area bound containers in the first cars, and only NY containers in the first cars, and interchange that block to NS at Chicago). They can handle single stacking a block. Going to flat cars adds several layers of complexity: now they have to use spine cars. Presently, they do use spine cars to haul containers: if there are trailers in the consist and empty spaces on the articulated platforms they will ship containers in the empty spaces. Or if they're out of wells, they'll send containers on spine cars. But they are not setup to only send spine cars to a destination. They also aren't setup to use 89' flats. You'd need a dedicated fleet, you can't draw from the intermodal pool, you'd need more cars than you think (cars in transit, cars ready to load, cars still unloading at the other end). Where would you keep the extra cars? Space is at a premium in intermodal yards. They do not have room to store empties. Empties are assembled into special trains and dragged out of the yard to special holding areas until needed. Now you need a holding area for your unicorns.

*=3' 7 5/8" loading deck height and a 9.5 domestic high cube = 13.135 feet so it should clear everything. [source]

Maybe we can get a little creative here. How about testing some of those dormant RoadRailers with "Super Single" tires. Would that eliminate the third rail contact problem?


Edit: Actually let me take this one step further. You unload containers in New Jersey. Put them on modified RailRunner trailers. Send them through Manhattan to a flat unloading area in Queens say at Wheelspur Yard (plenty of room). And you have a pretty basic inexpensive build out and a pretty simple operation.

Roadrailers are finished. The last remaining ones are dedicated to the KC-Detroit auto parts service on NS. I think NS wants to forget they even exist. And the funky trailer thing was tried already: http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/bogies/bogies.htm

Believe me, I'd like to see less trucks on the roads. I think it's a crime that there's a container terminal in Brooklyn that has no rail access. CP/D&H supposedly had a TOFC service running to the Bronx. There are several mail and UPS facilities in spitting distance of the LIRR Central Branch along Stewart Avenue. With enough funds (and less funds than Gateway or a pie-in-the-sky doublestack tunnel that would be lucky to see 2 trains per day) this problem can be fixed.