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  • (Un) Happy 49th - Amtrak

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1541431  by SouthernRailway
 
WashingtonPark wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 12:44 pm It would seem to me the airlines will lose the most business. My daughter works for a major company that does a ton of engineering. Everybody hopes the long distance trips to meet clients ends but both management and labor are very down on continuing working at home once restrictions are lifted calling it inefficient and much less productive than working with people in the office setting. I'm sure things like billing and payroll could be continued at home but we're a long way off from everybody closing their offices and having people just work from home from now on.
Exactly. My employer has had us all working from home since before the government required that.

Business can get by for a while online and remotely, but business (getting new clients, deals, etc.) is best generated through in-person connections.

I suspect that those of us who want to work remotely will be allowed to continue to do so, and those of us who don’t want to travel will be allowed not to, but the type-As who want to generate a large client base and keep clients happy (senior people) will be back to doing a lot of in-person events just as they always have.
 #1541433  by eolesen
 
The question will be whether employers will take on the liability of those type A's. Some are going to keep people on a tight leash and even tighter expense account...

Sent from my SM-T290 using Tapatalk

 #1541446  by RRspatch
 
CarterB wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 6:45 pm Amtrak at 50th will be a shadow of itself, except for NE Corridor, and a few other regionals
I disagree. In 12 to 18 months Covid-19 will begin to fade as either a cure will be found or enough people will build up an immunity to it (antibody testing is one thing that needs to be ramped up). Most companies will want to bring their employees back to the office as they find that productivity is down due to WFH. Also companies are already facing data security issues with people working from home with weak anti-virus software and no firewalls. Still another issue cropping up is that in some places in this country internet speeds really SUCK .... oh, and data caps as well.

Travel will recover even if it takes two to five years for it to do so.
 #1541564  by Tadman
 
eolesen wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 5:58 pm
If I remember, he got kicked out of university housing for running a business from his dorm room, but was making enough by that time that getting an apartment wasn’t a problem.
Crazy that this is a rule.

Some business is bad in a dorm, some is good. But just "running a business" as a bad thing? Spare me... Such a bad example.

I also can't imagine this working today. How many people "run a business" through the internet now?

And do we really want to discourage students from picking up some extra coin to do things like, uh, hmmmmmm PAY FOR COLLEGE??? Especially the way college has become so much more expensive over the years, far outpacing inflation.
 #1541606  by west point
 
The interaction between students out side of the lecture hall is an important growth parameter. The arguments outside the class room I really found important. On line too much one persons view point.
 #1541616  by trainhq
 
It would seem to me the airlines will lose the most business. My daughter works for a major company that does a ton of engineering. Everybody hopes the long distance trips to meet clients ends but both management and labor are very down on continuing working at home once restrictions are lifted calling it inefficient and much less productive than working with people in the office setting. I'm sure things like billing and payroll could be continued at home but we're a long way off from everybody closing their offices and having people just work from home from now on.
Hard to say which will lose more, planes or trains, as they both have the same issues with social distancing. Unfortunately, planes can get back going faster, so when things resume in a while, they may come out ahead. Would be a pity if this killed all the long distance trains.
 #1542429  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Based on an article appearing today in The Times, airlines are worried - along with many.other things - if their business travel will return in full:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/10/busi ... d=em-share

Fair Use:
.Poll after poll has shown that the vast majority of people are likely to wait on the sidelines for quite some time. According to one recent survey by the Democracy Fund + U.C.L.A. Nationscape Project, 60 percent of people would “definitely or probably” not fly even if stay-at-home orders were lifted on the advice of public health officials.

“The airlines certainly need to get back into business but they’re going to be facing a public that’s going to be scared to travel,” Mr. Harteveldt said. “I think a lot of people all over the world are going to be wrestling with fear and trust.”

Business travel may recover sooner, at least according to a survey of the members of the Global Business Travel Association that found that a majority of travel managers expect trips to restart in the coming months. Yet Mr. Kelly, of Southwest, told the PBS NewsHour that work travel would probably be depressed for years.
Let's be honest about it; Amtrak has only one business travel market - and that's the Corridor. So Amtrak can "color themselves fortunate" that they have less to lose should this market be permanently "altered".

Sure, Mr. Dunville will want to be face to face (at the Bar? NO; that's how businesswas done "back in my Father's day") to close a deal for industrial machinery, but I can forsee where it will no longer necessary for Associate Attorneys to spend hours toiling away in a litigant's basement doing document searches (or in my profession, Junior Auditors).

When New York based Maggie Haberman of The Times is "on a breaking story" and the key interview is in Wash, of course she will be on the next Acela down, but how about the just hired "Cub" with a story. Maybe in the past, a Regional., but post-COVID, your story, even at The Times, will be sourced on-line.
 #1542496  by Tadman
 
I think right now the news is reveling in their click-fueled fantasy world with articles about "THINGS WILL NEVER BE THE SAME" or "DOOM FOLLOWED BY GLOOM AND MORE DOOM FOR ____ ECONOMY BUSINESS MONEY THING".

Allow me to put a hard stop on that very quickly.

We heard that same malarkey after 9/11, and then after the great crash of 2009. We probably heard that after 1941, 1987, 1991, etc... on and on and on.

Yes, things will change. Things change regardless of crisis. I don't use a blackberry or fax anymore, I don't worry about polio, my car shifts itself and starts itself, I have never dialed a phone by rotating the numbers, things have and continue to change. The world is a dynamic place. We didn't get camera phones or facebook as a result of the last crash or plague. How many of those were crisis-induced innovations?

Know what else is cool? After every calamity is a boom. It starts slowly, and it's hard at first, but the worst is over. We're in or near the trough. 2024 will likely be much better than 2020.

To relate this to railroads, airplanes, travel:

1. Amtrak will grow but not win. I think Amtrak is great, and ridership will grow. Until we find a real business model it's not going to be a silver bullet. Want to make it mainstream? Find private operators and an equitable subsidy model. Run on time. Focus on short distances that are not attractive for car or air travel. Interline with air carriers so when you land at O'Hare or LaGuardia, you can get to Rockford or Punksatawney easily. Have Enterprise renting cars (or bikes?) or Lyft at the depot in Rockford to get you to Loves Park. Railfans are <1% of travelers, nobody rides just to ride trains. People ride to get places predictably.

2. There will be a big shakeout in air travel, but it will come back stronger. Look at Gulf Wars 1 & 2 or 9/11. There were bankruptcies and the weaker carriers (Pan Am, TWA) disappeared. Poorly ran state-run carriers disappeared or were privatised. Some were privatised poorly and are back to national status (Aerolineas Argentinas - privatisation is not always done right). On the day before Covid hit, the big three US carriers were kicking serious a$s.

3. We will forget the bad stuff faster than you imagine. If you read Galbraith's "Great Crash 1929" or some of his other work, boom-bust cycles go a bit like this. We crawl out of a bust, the boom begins slowly, then faster, as it goes we take more and more risks. At some point we forget what risk means and pretend it doesn't matter. Then there's a bust. We remember risk and are overprotective. The bust goes ugly quickly. Then we hit bottom and repeat. What I perceive to be the silver lining of this bust: it wasn't caused by massive defaults and under-valued assets securing over-valued debt. Like 2009. Like 1929. Like 1987. Ergo it might be easier to pick up the pieces. 1/4 of all homes are not in default or bank-owned. There are no trusts. There are no tulip bulbs.

4. Work travel will continue to rebalance. Notice I didnt' say grow/shrink. As Mr. Norman points out, junior staffers will spend less time on client sites. That's been a 20 year trend and it's not stopping now. Mid-level staff will continue to be forced into coach for business travel. That sounds elitist, but try flying 8+ hours every week. Also consider that it's hard to work in coach, easy in first. I have a friend that has an overt agreement with a client in SFO, while he is in DC. He bills two extra hours per week. That money covers first class to SFO. He flies whenever however they need, drop of a hat. They value his work that much. And that's the take-away: We will reconsider where the value is an re-emphasize there.

Food for thought.
 #1542506  by Pensyfan19
 
Very good points Tadman. Despite the negative anti-public transportation press which is trying to control public opinion, rail transportation is still receiving large amounts of funding for numerous projects across the nation, and some rail services are starting to restore regularly scheduled trains. The Acela is even supposed to return to service on June 1, along with two regionals.
 #1542546  by west point
 
Any trust of airlines should be very suspect. 2008 just caused more consolidation all bad! After what United airlines did selling the middle seats the other day ? ? If I was a senior manager of a company I would require for my employees to take a private airplane, car, or Amtrak to business meetings if at all possible and not have them get screwed by the airlines.
 #1542562  by David Benton
 
Tadman wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 9:43 am I think right now the news is reveling in their click-fueled fantasy world with articles about "THINGS WILL NEVER BE THE SAME" or "DOOM FOLLOWED BY GLOOM AND MORE DOOM FOR ____ ECONOMY BUSINESS MONEY THING".

Allow me to put a hard stop on that very quickly.

We heard that same malarkey after 9/11, and then after the great crash of 2009. We probably heard that after 1941, 1987, 1991, etc... on and on and on.
80000+ Deaths , nearly 1.5 mil cases , (many avoidable), is hardly fantasy world. The perils of opening up too quickly are already showing in some countries , as is the price of not shutting down/testing quick enough .

Amtrak will survive , and possibly gain , but only if it adapts quickly , and uses it advantage of more space to provide distancing.
 #1542574  by eolesen
 
west point wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 8:16 pm Any trust of airlines should be very suspect. 2008 just caused more consolidation all bad! After what United airlines did selling the middle seats the other day ? ?
Point of order. The fake news sensationalized the "full flight" but left out the fact that the reason some of those middle seats were full is that United was flying 25+ first responders **FOR FREE** from NYC back to SFO.
west point wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 8:16 pmIf I was a senior manager of a company I would require for my employees to take a private airplane, car, or Amtrak to business meetings if at all possible and not have them get screwed by the airlines.
If I had a boss who valued my time so little that he'd require me to take a private car or Amtrak to go to meetings vs. the fastest mode available, I'd quit.

Every day I get behind the wheel in a car, I'm at higher risk of dying in a crash than from something like COVID.

Dangerous freedom is far better than safe solitude.
 #1542579  by David Benton
 
"the fake news", lol . You do realize in most democracies, politicians can't get away with labeling any news media they don't like as fake news. That's "1984" happening right there.
But I agree with your point , no boss should dictate how their employees travel , based on their own dislikes. The cost of flying safely , plus any possible quarantine requirements etc , may push business travel towards Amtrak .
I imagine businesses and organisations (and countries/ regions ) will have risk based requirements for anyone visiting / transiting. Its all based on contact tracing , minimizing the number of close contacts is the best way to mange the risk . Current airline economy seating won't make the grade.
Then again governments may subsidize the cost of airlines removing at least 1/2 the seats per airline. Even if they subsidize Amtrak to the same extent , that would be a lost advantage to Amtrak . I.e its slower , but can provide the contact spacing.
 #1542587  by NY&LB
 
Even if they subsidize Amtrak to the same extent , that would be a lost advantage to Amtrak . I.e its slower , but can provide the contact spacing.
I am going to jump in here: For business travel, from my point of view, only corridor service is in the realm of reality. Only a very small number of folks (if any) would use AMTRAK LD trains for business (again in my opinion). So, for say NYC to WAS, would someone rather spend 3-4 hours in an confined area on a tube on rails or 1 hour on one in the air? Contact proximity for spread of CV-19 has both a physical component and a temporal one. The longer the time, the greater likelihood of someone sneezing in your vicinity. Furthermore, on the say 4-5 stops from NYC to WAS more passengers will get on (and off) thus creating a higher risk. Even if you limit cars to 50% capacity, there would be MORE DIFFERENT people to which you would be exposed (than on a plane). Also consider proximity in terms of people simply walking around on trains whereas on planes, especially short flights, people more likely will just stay put. Another factor in favor of the train is there is likely less "contact" potential at train stations than at the airports under the old normal, right now, I suspect the airports are pretty empty.

Now let's address my case. I live in NJ and frequently travel to our nations capital on business. My preference is ACELA from MetroPark, 30 miles in the wrong direction from my home. From a point to point perspective, to get from my home to where I need to be in DC, it typically takes the same time whether I fly, train or drive. So right now I would be driving. Of course under adverse weather conditions, the train is more reliable than driving or flying. The train is always more comfortable.

This is all very complex with many factors impacting risk and each individual must perform their own risk analysis when determining IF and HOW they will get from point A to point B.
 #1542592  by David Benton
 
All good points , and why I say Amtrak must move quickly to make a point of difference.
Some non stop trains , some designated destination carriages , separate entrance /exits, plexiglass screens . Is the reservation system up to contact tracing / giving customer distancing options ?. Can the app provide close contact tracing via bluetooth between passenger devices. Some will see it as an assurance , others an invasion of privacy. Again Amtrak has the space to provide the choice. Travel in a regulated carriage with contact tracing for those that want it / require it . open class for those that want to take the risk .
A huge risk group is the elderly , probably feel safest in their own car, but would possibly also feel safer on a train vs a plane.