FDNY regulation of Amtrak

[ApproachMedium]

Even though the ALP45 runs thru the tunnel with the engines off the FDNY still needed to run thru approval/ fire safety on the units because it still carries items that are combustible thru the tunnel in large quantity. Even if the engine is not running, a derailment that could damage the fuel tank could provide a significant issue with the amount of fuel that would leak out. Amtraks current diesels all went thru this process and are fine.

Id imagine if there was a need to move a hazmat car thru the tunnel it would be prohibited.

[JoeG]

Years ago, New York City prohibited tractor trailers carrying gasoline. Gas had to be carried in special straight trucks with a 3000 gallon capacity. The trucks were specially built and extra strong. At some point these small trucks were gone and we started seeing the regular semis full of gas. I was told that federal law had pre-empted city law and the city was now prevented from enforcing its 3000 gallon limit and its requirement for specially reinforced gas trucks.

My guess is that the conflict between the city law and the federal law had existed for some time but that finally some oil or trucking company sued. So, I think if there were a conflict between FDNY and federal regulations, Amtrak would have to sue to try to get the pre-emption of local law by federal law. Since suing is risky, because you are never sure of the outcome, Amtrak and FDNY would rather negotiate the requirements. The negotiation might include allowing a few diesels through NYP.

[exvalley]

One word: preemption

https://www.nap.edu/read/22093/chapter/36

[R36 Combine Coach]

On a related note, I recall that some federal/interstate agencies were exempted from certain fire codes, such as PANYNJ, which came up as when the WTC towers were built (late 60s), they were not subject to certain requirements. One thing I recall reading is that the City Council did ban asbestos in commercial use around that time (early 1970) and only the first 40 stories of the north tower that were already completed received spray-on asbestos-based material, the rest using an approved substitute.

[gokeefe]

I think it's worth noting that comparing a tunnel or an enclosed station area like Penn Station is not the same as an open highway or tracks under the big sky out West somewhere.

The tunnel structure and station structure are the reason why the City of New York has some regulatory latitude in this matter. If the tracks were wide open there is a very good chance that the regulation we're talking about here would indeed be federally preempted.

[R36 Combine Coach]

The tunnel structure and station structure are the reason why the City of New York has some regulatory latitude in this matter. If the tracks were wide open there is a very good chance that the regulation we're talking about here would indeed be federally preempted.

Not much different from PANYNJ having strict regulations on trucks and HAZMATs in tunnels (due to the very high risk or fire or explosion in narrow tubes).

[RRspatch]

Even though the ALP45 runs thru the tunnel with the engines off the FDNY still needed to run thru approval/ fire safety on the units because it still carries items that are combustible thru the tunnel in large quantity. Even if the engine is not running, a derailment that could damage the fuel tank could provide a significant issue with the amount of fuel that would leak out. Amtraks current diesels all went thru this process and are fine.

Id imagine if there was a need to move a hazmat car thru the tunnel it would be prohibited.

This is something I alluded to several months ago in the discussion about replacing locomotive hauled trains on the NEC with a US version of the BR Class 800/801 bi-mode trains. I mentioned the fact that each passenger car would have a diesel engine and a fuel tank under it might not pass muster with the NYFD.

As far as I know Amtrak still hasn't decided just what will replace the Amfleet 1 cars on the NEC but I suspect it will be Siemens Viaggio cars. I just can't see the NYFD allowing a BR class 800/801 style train to operate through those tunnels and NYPS.

[east point]

Remember that the night owls often run with a diesel and electric for CAT maintenance.

[ApproachMedium]

Remember that the night owls often run with a diesel and electric for CAT maintenance.

with a diesel thats long since been proven, and without the diesel engine on. and it rarely happens anymore

[RRspatch]

Remember that the night owls often run with a diesel and electric for CAT maintenance.

Yes, generally east of "Gate" and west of "Hudson". The catenary system can be sectionalized into "Catenary Plates". With two tunnels to the west of PSNY and four tunnels to the east I can't see why there wouldn't be an electric route through one of them. As for Penn Station I can't see the whole station complex being de-energized. The only choke point I could see would be between "Bergen" and "Hudson" on the High Line and even then there's insulators between the two tracks.

Remembering my Amtrak "ET" classes .....

[Tadman]

If Amtrak wanted to run unit oil trains (or LPG) through the tunnels & Penn Station, isn't that federally preempted?

It might be a moot point - I think (don't quote me on this) that PRR or PC tried running some night freights through NYP and wound up with a bunch of broken knuckles and/or overhead E44's due to the grades. But then they got the circus train through and probably had at least a few gas generators or towmotors abouard.

[bdawe]

there was that great 'freight through penn' thread of a few years back

[Ken W2KB]

Also, very few diesel or dual mode trains originating at NYP leave the state, so it's not interstate anyway.

They are indeed interstate. FRA jurisdiction extends to all railroads and their track, equipment and operations that are part of, i.e. connected to, the general interstate railroad system. That certain equipment of such a railroad is used only within a single state is irrelevant. Jurisdiction does not apply only if the railroad is not connected to the interstate system, i.e., is insular, and in certain instances to private trackage within and owned and operated by industrial facilities for that industry's sole use, even though connected to the general system at the plant's fence. Even with respect to an insular railroad, for example a tourist railroad within a single state without a connection to any other railroad, if that railroad has a grade crossing over a public road, the FRA has compete jusrisdiction. Often the FRA will grant a petition for exemption by such an insular railroad, but the grant is not a given, it depends upon the specific facts and circumstances present.

[R36 Combine Coach]

They are indeed interstate. FRA jurisdiction extends to all railroads and their track, equipment and operations that are part of, i.e. connected to, the general interstate railroad system.

I recall this reason is cited as why PATH is subject to FRA, since it has a national network connection. Yet NYCT has connections to the mainline network as well and even has a public crossing (SBK on 3rd Avenue, under the Gowanus Viaduct). The CTA has many crossings, portions of the system were part of a grandfathered ICC carrier (North Shore) like PATH/H&M and yet CTA is not federally regulated.

Newark City Subway, which runs on a portion of the Erie's Orange Branch (NS operated) since the 2002 extension, is under a timeshare waiver.

[mtuandrew]

Within recent memory PATH used to host mainline trains though, without strict temporal separation, and neither NYCT nor CTA have done so since there was an FRA to regulate service. Yard tracks solely used for deliveries (which I think are locked out from railroads when not in active use, and from transit when they are) are another matter.