Cost of Dead-heading

[Patrick Boylan]

If several of you feel so free to mention commuter lines on Amtrak forum let me join you. Septa Chestnut Hill West line once upon a time last outbound Saturday night-Sunday morning would deadhead inbound. I noticed it because, since it wasn't listed in the passenger timetable, I'd see it go by as I got in my automobile at the dance hall to go home. So the cost of deadheading in this case was 1 less round trip passenger, and however many other folks who regularly attended that Saturday night dance for whom that deadhead run would have been attractive who drove instead.
I had assumed the benefit to SEPTA was that the train could then go directly to Powelton yard without needing to go past the yard to get passengers to 30th St station and then change ends to get to the yard.
To add insult to injury, after I had posted about this so many years ago a wise rr.net submitter posted that that train actually deadheaded all the way through all 3 Center City Philly stations to the next yard, Roberts. So it didn't even get the advantage of avoiding that backtracking from 30th St to Powelton yard.
To add further insult that last outbound Saturday is no longer in the schedule, but I notice there are 2 late night weekday trains without corresponding inbounds, so presumably SEPTA has 2 weekday deadheads.

[STrRedWolf]

A dead head crew on a commuter run doesn't necessarily incur the full cost. In the absence of split shifts, the early/late crew may just be spending the start/ end of their shift sitting in the crew room anyway.
Surprised there,s been no grateful dead references.

I've been too busy to note any Jerry Garcia sightings.

[rcthompson04]

If several of you feel so free to mention commuter lines on Amtrak forum let me join you. Septa Chestnut Hill West line once upon a time last outbound Saturday night-Sunday morning would deadhead inbound. I noticed it because, since it wasn't listed in the passenger timetable, I'd see it go by as I got in my automobile at the dance hall to go home. So the cost of deadheading in this case was 1 less round trip passenger, and however many other folks who regularly attended that Saturday night dance for whom that deadhead run would have been attractive who drove instead.
I had assumed the benefit to SEPTA was that the train could then go directly to Powelton yard without needing to go past the yard to get passengers to 30th St station and then change ends to get to the yard.
To add insult to injury, after I had posted about this so many years ago a wise rr.net submitter posted that that train actually deadheaded all the way through all 3 Center City Philly stations to the next yard, Roberts. So it didn't even get the advantage of avoiding that backtracking from 30th St to Powelton yard.
To add further insult that last outbound Saturday is no longer in the schedule, but I notice there are 2 late night weekday trains without corresponding inbounds, so presumably SEPTA has 2 weekday deadheads.

SEPTA has some longer deadheads. Anything going from Malvern to Thorndale or vice versa has a longer deadhead than Powelton to Chestnut Hill West. I think the longest are on the Wilmington / Newark line early in the morning though.

[Tadman]

Dead heading is also cheaper because there are much smaller crew requirements.

If you think Amtrak's deadheading might be expensive, the Brits will deadhead a train across the country, all the dang time. The Cally deadheads from Inverness or Aberdeen to near Glasgow all the time for servicing. But then again, that's the country that also ships cars and locomotives by truck all the time. I don't pretend to understand...

That's interesting. But it's important to put "across the country" in perspective. It's an Island only a bit longer, and not as wide, as Illinois. Aberdeen-Glasgow at 146 miles is only 50 further than Norfolk-Richmond.

This is true, I sometimes get that out of perspective. I always picture the LSL going back to ALB for service after arriving NYP.

[ohioriverrailway]

Bet the trains were fairly empty.

I bet I can top that. Every day South Shore runs two early AM deadheads, MIchigan City to South Bend. Every night they run two SB-MC. They're in the timetable and carry passengers. I bet that's the emptiest train in the world.

I rode the second of those EB trips a few years ago. I think there were maybe a dozen of us.

[Tadman]

Wow. I am really surprised anybody was aboard. Perhaps some employees?

[lordsigma12345]

The new Valley Flyer in Western Mass has to dead head to and from Springfield for every trip as Amtrak has no turnaround facilities at the northern terminus in Greenfield. Thankfully it’s not too far so in this case I guess it works. They actually sell tickets on the “dead head” run on weekends but ridership is light on that but I guess every head is a bonus on that one since they need to run it no matter what.

[ThirdRail7]

A comment on another thread reminded me of a question I've had for years.
Apparently years ago (may still be true) the Empire Service dead-headed a train back to Albany at like 1:00 AM to balance out the fleet (I could be wrong on this, but for a second assume it's true).

It still exists.

So really two questions:
1) How many corridors have trains that dead-head? I can't imagine many.
2) What's the cost vs. actually taking passengers. I assume the engineer's pay is the same either way. I believe a conductor is still required? So is crew cost any different?

There are a handful of scheduled deadhead/equipment moves and the costs would depend on the line and services provided. If the line typically has attendants, your deadhead train may not have them.

BUT, assuming something like the Portland-Boston deadhead mentioned in the other thread, or the mythical (to me deadhead of NYP-ALB, would it not be possible to offset SOME of the cost by selling tickets, but boldly marking them with something like, "Look, we can't guarantee when we'll get there, but we will, so don't expect anything other than a ride."

Imagine trying to sell that. It bad enough the regularly scheduled trains can result in a crapshoot. Additionally, that is also the reason that they often run as a deadhead. Once you advertise it, you have to run it or attempt to accommodate the passengers. If you run it deadhead, you can manipulate the equipment, send it elsewhere or leave it. There are no immediate impacts.

Or are there other regulatory advantages of running a train as a dead-head vs. even with say 1/2 dozen passengers?

As Dutchrailnut mentioned, you can also move non-complying equipment without passengers on board. Without passengers, you can even put equipment with speed restrictions in the consist.

[Tadman]

BUT, assuming something like the Portland-Boston deadhead mentioned in the other thread, or the mythical (to me deadhead of NYP-ALB, would it not be possible to offset SOME of the cost by selling tickets, but boldly marking them with something like, "Look, we can't guarantee when we'll get there, but we will, so don't expect anything other than a ride."

Imagine trying to sell that. It bad enough the regularly scheduled trains can result in a crapshoot. Additionally, that is also the reason that they often run as a deadhead. Once you advertise it, you have to run it or attempt to accommodate the passengers. If you run it deadhead, you can manipulate the equipment, send it elsewhere or leave it. There are no immediate impacts.

For what it's worth, in the UK, deadhead passenger trains have a 5 priority (out of ten). Passenger is 1 or 2 depending on status of the train. 3, 4, and 5 are grades of freight. That should put in perspective the thought process allotted to getting a deadhead over the road, here or over there. It's a very low priority, so carrying passengers might be more trouble than it's worth and very few passengers would have that time flexibility.

[David Benton]

As an aside, in the old days of headboards on UK locos , that number would be the first numeral in train code , to let signalmen know the priority the train should be given. The locos had no headlights , so the headcodes could be seen at night, though they must have had good eyes to pick up the Expresses.

[Railjunkie]

A comment on another thread reminded me of a question I've had for years.
Apparently years ago (may still be true) the Empire Service dead-headed a train back to Albany at like 1:00 AM to balance out the fleet (I could be wrong on this, but for a second assume it's true).

It still exists.


Sunday night or at times during a Holiday schedule. Train 288 turns for 1297 at NYP. Tack an engine on the rear at ALB once you get to NYP drop your passengers strip the cafe change ends and head back up to ALB. Regular job for engineers off the list for train crew.

[Tadman]

As an aside, in the old days of headboards on UK locos , that number would be the first numeral in train code , to let signalmen know the priority the train should be given. The locos had no headlights , so the headcodes could be seen at night, though they must have had good eyes to pick up the Expresses.

What David speaks of is this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 9.2009.jpg

Said train is a express (1 prefix). The "E" denotes destination (a region, not a city) and the 29 is somewhat roughly equivalent to the 29th frequency of the day, and I can't remember if it's the 29th to that line, city, or region.

The head codes make sense within a framework, but are still maddeningly complex just like many British systems (stated as the owner of a Brit car).

[Gilbert B Norman]

Mr. Dunville, I'm pretty sure I have a photo of the "real deal" taken during the 1960 "family trip" at Paddington (London).