Why doesn't Amtrak have more stations around NYC?

[SouthernRailway]

Why does Amtrak use only Penn Station (and sometimes Grand Central) in NYC, and not more stations?

Metro-North is building additional stations in the Bronx. Amtrak might not benefit much from those, but why doesn't Amtrak build one in Queens (to get traffic from Long Island) and maybe re-open the ancient station at 86th Street whenever it uses Grand Central?

From the Upper East Side and Long Island, LaGuardia is just as close as Penn Station, if not closer, so having more stations in those areas could help traffic, particularly on Boston-NY-DC routes where the alternative is flying.

[andrewjw]

First, I'll note there are several stations around NYC, to the west (NWP, EWR, and to some degree MET/NBR/PJC/TRE) and north (NRO, YNY, CRT). Amtrak's model is to have each line serve one suburban station for park-and-ride customers and one urban station for transit-enabled customers to avoid spending too much time in station while still providing a wide range of options. Customers from NJ who wish to go north or from NYC who wish to go west can easily take a local train to Penn to continue their journey, and customers who wish to travel further outwards from NYC can get their respective local train with frequent service (MNRR to NCR or YNY, or PATH or NJT to NWP or MET) and transfer on the same platform, avoiding holding up service.

Second, New York is well-connected by local public transportation, and the local transportation gets people to and from Penn much more efficiently than it would get them to other locations. A station in the Bronx or Astoria would be accessible to a small number of customers (no subway access, or maybe one or two lines). Though LGA is just as close by car on a clear road, how long does it take to get from, say, 86th St Lex (as a proxy for the UES and Bronx) or Jamaica (as a proxy for everywhere east of Jamaica) to Penn vs LGA considering only public transit?

This does inconvenience Long Island, in that they have to go in to Penn even if their route does backtrack out over Queens, but there's no way to serve Long Island customers with a station in Astoria, and a station in Sunnyside would save a comparatively small amount of time while inconveniencing everyone on the through service.

Note that Amtrak only serves Grand Central during urgent repairs or emergencies, to such a degree that they don't maintain any presence in Grand Central. (How many times since 1991 have they used Grand Central? I can only think of summer of '18.) Stopping at 125 St could be a consideration to make life easier for Upper Manhattan (M60), UES (456), Bronx (2456), or Astoria (M60) customers, but these customers can all just take MNRR up to YNY or CRT and transfer (or make the trip down to GCT at almost no additional cost in time, for 456 and Queens customers), and Amtrak doesn't have any presence at 125 St.

With regards to 86 St, consider that if MNRR is not even stopping their trains because it is easier to take the 456 there then why would Amtrak consider stopping? It's not like there is a functioning station there if only the doors were opened - the remains of the former station have no non-emergency ground access, do not have a maintained platform, are used for machinery, and are only two cars long.

[SouthernRailway]

From the Upper East Side and East Midtown, LaGuardia is closer than Penn Station (in terms of travel time), if you take public transportation, and perhaps even by car. Those areas are full of the Acela crowd.

If Amtrak had a station in Long Island City or even northward along its line to Boston, that would be easily reachable from those areas, and Long Island, and it would help ridership. Long Island City is now a high-income area and has multiple subway lines, just 1 stop from East Midtown.

[mtuandrew]

A Hunterspoint Avenue stop would be convenient for some people, but also - why? Amtrak’s job isn’t local transportation. If it were me, I’d tell my friends from Connecticut to transfer at NRO to Metro-North and then to the M60 bus at 125th, or to backtrack from NYP via the 7 train.

If there’s ever an AirTrain to KLGA, and if Metro-North ever finishes West Side Access, Amtrak may want to consider connecting at a local MNRR station in the Bronx or Queens for a few Regionals. Perhaps one at Ditmars Blvd or Northern Blvd.

[SouthernRailway]

A Hunterspoint Avenue stop would be convenient for some people, but also - why?

Because it would make Amtrak more time-competitive with flying between NYC and Boston/Washington, particularly for people in Long Island, Queens (if they take Amtrak) and the East Side of Manhattan, and thus generate more traffic for Amtrak.

[rcthompson04]

Interesting idea, but sounds like something to slow down already slow trains due to the speeds obtainable in the area.

The only think really analogous is the somewhat frequent stop at Ardmore and the occasional stops at Newark DE, North Philadelphia and Cornwallis Heights.

[SRich]

Perhaps can Amtrak build a few stations on the empire corridor. They already own the ground and tracks.

[Jeff Smith]

86th St. Station was not open for very long: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86th_Stre ... _Railroad)

It closed in 1901. The Park Avenue tunnels are at capacity... there's no chance at a slot for a stop there.

You definitely have a point on Long Island, but not for LGA. As part of Penn Access for Metro North, Amtrak is studying Long Island. There's a good thread on it here somewhere. I'd suppose Jamaica would be on the list, but I doubt anywhere else within Queens. And I can't imagine a stop in the Bronx, when MNRR will be serving that.

[andrewjw]

From the Upper East Side and East Midtown, LaGuardia is closer than Penn Station (in terms of travel time), if you take public transportation, and perhaps even by car. Those areas are full of the Acela crowd.

If Amtrak had a station in Long Island City or even northward along its line to Boston, that would be easily reachable from those areas, and Long Island, and it would help ridership. Long Island City is now a high-income area and has multiple subway lines, just 1 stop from East Midtown.

I'm going to dispel the notion that it is easier to get to LGA then Penn by public transit. I went on Citymapper and compared the departure time needed to arrive by 9:30 am at Penn and LaGuardia Terminal B by public transit. I picked these constraints before looking at the results.

East Midtown:
from 55 St and 2nd Avenue (chosen for medium proximity to public transit): depart at 9:07 (walk to the E) for Penn, or depart at 8:56 for LGA Terminal B. If you want a car to LGA, you need to get in by at 9:01.

UES:
From 86 St 456 (proxy for UES): 9:06 for Penn and 8:50 for LGA. (9:02 departure by car is still slower than the transit trip to penn!)
For another point of comparison: 96 St Q: 9:09 for Penn, 8:49 for LGA (9:05 for LGA car)
Even 125 St 456 (proxy for Bronx): 9:00 for Penn, 8:50 for LGA (9:08 by car).
I would be shocked to find any location in Manhattan from which LGA is a faster trip by public transit than Penn is. Your argument for UES commuters needing a better station is comically misguided.

Queens and LI:
From Queens Plaza (proxy for Sunnyside and lower Astoria): 9:07 for Penn and 9:07 for LGA. (9:06 for LGA car)
From Astoria-Ditmars Boulevard: 8:53 for Penn, 8:56 for LGA. (9:15 departing by car)
From Jamaica (proxy for Long Island): 9:05 for Penn, 8:56 for LGA (9:08 for LGA by car)
From Woodside 7: 9:05 for Penn, 9:08 for LGA (9:13 by car)
From Jackson Heights: 9:03 for Penn, 9:15 for LGA (9:15 by car, since it is express on the bus)
Flushing: 8:50 for Penn, 8:58 for LGA if departing from the 7, 8:55 both if already at Main St. (9:12 for LGA by car)
Unless you already have access to a direct line to the airport (Woodside/Jackson Heights and Astoria), it is faster to get to Penn than LGA). Conclusion: anyone on Long Island coming in on LIRR will get to Penn faster (see Jamaica).

From anywhere in Brooklyn it is obviously faster to get to Penn on public transit than LGA, if they were even when you started in Queens.

It turns out it is often faster to get to Penn by public transit than LGA by car, from many of these locations!

The proposal of a station in LIC/Sunnyside would definitely speed up rides for anyone coming in on an LIRR train which stopped there, but the time saved would be pretty small given that those LIRR trains already stop in Penn just a couple minutes later. And Amtrak's ROW through Sunnyside is not well set-up for a station, being on a flying junction right in the middle of a massive rail ROW with no space for platforms. Most passengers would still use Penn or would be on the train through NYC and would be inconvenienced by the additional stop.

[SouthernRailway]

andrewjw, the rest us don't fling insults at each other. When you do that, it does not reflect well on you.

I live in one of areas where getting to LGA is just as easy as getting to NY Penn. I know what I'm talking about. Amtrak is losing some ridership by not having stations in outlying areas of NYC.

[mtuandrew]

SR: would it help to have an express bus NRO-KLGA?

[Greg Moore]

Perhaps can Amtrak build a few stations on the empire corridor. They already own the ground and tracks.

Now they don't. Everything north of Spuyten Duyvil to Poughkeepsie is owned by Metro North and north of that is owned by CSX and leased to Amtrak.

If you mean the West Side Line (from the bridge south to Empire Connection) how many stations do you really expect to put in and why?
I can tell you most folks coming from the north want to go to Penn Station (or if they really could, Grand Central Terminal, but that's no longer an option.)

[Rockingham Racer]

They stop at Yonkers. That seems close in enough for me. Change there for M-N to GCT if you want.

[Roadgeek Adam]

Let's be honest. There's a lot of passenger service around here. Amtrak doesn't need to provide limited stop service. The stations chosen are also not without a reason.

Active:

New Haven Line: New Rochelle, Stamford, Bridgeport, New Haven Union, New Haven State (Rye historically)
Harlem Line: None
Hudson Line: Yonkers, Croton-Harmon, Poughkeespie

Northeast Corridor: Newark Penn, Newark Airport, Metropark (Rahway historically), New Brunswick, Princeton Junction, Trenton

All of them are picked because they are in convenience to locations of urban areas. Amtrak does not need to stop at 2 cities along the New Haven in Westchester. People are not going to lose their minds if they have to catch a taxi to New Rochelle or to Stamford. On the Hudson Line, outside of Beacon for Newburgh access, is there any particular stop that Amtrak should stop at? I don't see any.

In New Jersey, the only line that would benefit from Amtrak service in any way is the Lackawanna Cut-Off, if it were to ever be finished, which it won't. However, it's not going to happen. There isn't a need for another stop on the Northeast Corridor.

Amtrak shouldn't be in the business of supplementing service at every station in the NYC area, even if they are higher in M-N and NJT ridership.

[SouthernRailway]

Let's look at this another way.

Say I live in Oyster Bay (or anywhere in Long Island), and I have to go to Boston or Washington.

Why in the world would I drive past LaGuardia (or take a train past LaGuardia) to get to NY Penn to take Amtrak?

Same for people in Long Island City: why in the world would they go into Manhattan to get to NY Penn to take Amtrak, when LGA is right nearby?

Another Amtrak station- and Jamaica or Hunterspoint Avenue are great ideas- makes Amtrak much more competitive for these people.