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  • Revisiting the "more auto train" idea

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1524367  by Tadman
 
So for a long time the collective wisdom has been that Auto Train only works on point-to-point and the only good corridor is the current one. I subscribed to that logic until I started travelling internationally and I think it's worth exploring three other countries that offer/offered auto trains.

UK: The Motorail service was a long distance train on routes like London-Scotland. Due to clearances the operation was single level flatcars and vans. In London, a special terminal in Zone 2 or 3 (I think) was used, but at Edinburgh Waverly, a ramp from street level led cars to a main track in a busy downtown station. Cars were loaded by driving 45 degrees to a flat car over a ramp from a high platform, then down the flatcars to the last open space. Service waned throughout the 90's and was done at privatisation. It's not clear to me if this was a long-neglected service or victim of privatisation.

Argentina: A similar service was offered on most long distance trains, almost all of which were cut by the Menem regime in 1992. The remaining two signature trains, the Patagonian Train and Gran Capitan, kept their auto service. It was usually 1-2 flatcars with stake sides. The Gran Capitan is done but the Patagonian Train continues to offer auto service. Where it is needed, the car is tucked in behind the power. To unload an auto mid-route, the power/rack combo is cut off, run to a nearby ramp, and then added back. This is a bit easier as the HEP comes from the "furgon" or baggage car genset. The new long distance trains operated by Chinese equipment do not have such service.

Austria: Multiple Nightjet services are operated with 3-5 trailing 2-level auto racks. This is still a common service. I think it's only point-to-point but not totally sure.

So it's not a dead concept, but it appears to be viable it relies on subsidy, as the operations in the UK and Argentina were cut with funding cuts. It's also worth asking "what is the win here?". If a subsidised auto train were started on Illinois Corridor service or a medium corridor like Minneapolis or KC, would it make more sense than renting a car upon arrival? I bet it would cost more than $50/day to rent a small car. Perhaps the solution is to encourage development of Enterprise offices at major terminals instead.

It's worth discussing though, as it's not as dead of a concept as we think it is.
 #1524381  by danib62
 
I'm not sure I would call any of these examples successful, certainly not anywhere near as successful as the current auto train...
 #1524385  by Ridgefielder
 
You could probably fill a 2nd or 3rd daily Northeast <-> FL auto-train to capacity if you could figure out a way to get it to the New York metro area. For anyone around here the absolute worst part of the trip south is the drive down 95 between NY and Richmond. Problem is you'd need something that could fit through the various tunnels around Baltimore-- in other words, a custom-built autorack. NY terminal would have to be somewhere on the Jersey side (maybe adjacent to Oak Island Yard?) since there's zero chance anyone would OK hauling cars w full gas tanks through the North and East river tubes.
 #1524387  by WhartonAndNorthern
 
Ridgefielder wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:44 pm You could probably fill a 2nd or 3rd daily Northeast <-> FL auto-train to capacity if you could figure out a way to get it to the New York metro area. For anyone around here the absolute worst part of the trip south is the drive down 95 between NY and Richmond. Problem is you'd need something that could fit through the various tunnels around Baltimore-- in other words, a custom-built autorack. NY terminal would have to be somewhere on the Jersey side (maybe adjacent to Oak Island Yard?) since there's zero chance anyone would OK hauling cars w full gas tanks through the North and East river tubes.
CSX Howard Street Tunnel was upgraded to handle autoracks as Baltimore is a large auto port. Clearance is 19' 1". Philadelphia is the next choke point. CSX clearance maps shows that racks can run up to about Chester, PA. From the North, there appears to be a rack route into Philly (20' 02"), but not through Philly. I imagine clearances to and through Philly will improve as part of the double stack clearance upgrades for Philly and Baltimore.
 #1524391  by mtuandrew
 
The Capitol Limited route could be a winner, especially if it originates from the Baltimore/BWI area (and the original Auto Train moves there from Lorton). That extra hour and a half northeast would create a boost in ridership from points north, and wouldn’t be a big change for northern Virginia riders.

On the west end, I’ve advocated for a Blue Island-area yard, but an Auto Train facility at the Belt Railway of Chicago’s Clearing Yard would be ideal. Best to leave route options open between NS and CSX.
 #1524400  by danib62
 
SouthernRailway wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:49 pm Why can't the private sector provide this service? It did in the 1970s.
You see the private sector generally likes to make something we call money... Money can be exchanged for goods and services!
 #1524404  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Again, I reiterate:

18hrs schedule MAX; "arewethereyetitis" becomes quite endemic if longer.

Auto Train passengers are not railfans, or even experiential riders.

Three potential markets for "Auto Train Service," i.e. Racks attached to existing trains and passengers accommodated in line space:

Galesburg-Irondale (Denver)
Galesburg-La Junta
Albuquerque-Victorville
Last edited by Gilbert B Norman on Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #1524406  by mcgrath618
 
WhartonAndNorthern wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:57 pm
Ridgefielder wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:44 pm You could probably fill a 2nd or 3rd daily Northeast <-> FL auto-train to capacity if you could figure out a way to get it to the New York metro area. For anyone around here the absolute worst part of the trip south is the drive down 95 between NY and Richmond. Problem is you'd need something that could fit through the various tunnels around Baltimore-- in other words, a custom-built autorack. NY terminal would have to be somewhere on the Jersey side (maybe adjacent to Oak Island Yard?) since there's zero chance anyone would OK hauling cars w full gas tanks through the North and East river tubes.
CSX Howard Street Tunnel was upgraded to handle autoracks as Baltimore is a large auto port. Clearance is 19' 1". Philadelphia is the next choke point. CSX clearance maps shows that racks can run up to about Chester, PA. From the North, there appears to be a rack route into Philly (20' 02"), but not through Philly. I imagine clearances to and through Philly will improve as part of the double stack clearance upgrades for Philly and Baltimore.
Autoracks are now cleared on the highline. As long as the train isn't stopping in Philly (which isn't a good idea), you could run the train up on the high line and bypass 30th.

Source: the autorrack train currently running outside my bedroom window on the highline.
 #1524413  by Tadman
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:57 pm They went bust, Mr. SRY. How is the business model any different today?
That was 1979. Since then, we've seen the fall of communism, the rise of the internet, the rise and fall of the compact disc... Many things have changed so much we wouldn't recognize that era.

There were also so many what-if's regarding the fall of that business. What if they had bought new equipment instead of used? What if they had a different operations model? What if they hadn't had some fatal crashes? What if they had run a shorter/longer route? What if they had picked an entirely different route? What if they had a real CEO instead of the guy that ran it and wasn't really a businessman? What if they had run an auto ferry service only and let Amtrak handle the passengers?

It's entirely possible that it still isn't a viable concept, but the fact that one poorly-managed company failed in 1979 is not indicative of the current marketplace.
 #1524438  by Paul1705
 
Tadman wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:01 pm
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:57 pm They went bust, Mr. SRY. How is the business model any different today?
That was 1979. Since then, we've seen the fall of communism, the rise of the internet, the rise and fall of the compact disc... Many things have changed so much we wouldn't recognize that era.

There were also so many what-if's regarding the fall of that business. What if they had bought new equipment instead of used? What if they had a different operations model? What if they hadn't had some fatal crashes? What if they had run a shorter/longer route? What if they had picked an entirely different route? What if they had a real CEO instead of the guy that ran it and wasn't really a businessman? What if they had run an auto ferry service only and let Amtrak handle the passengers?

It's entirely possible that it still isn't a viable concept, but the fact that one poorly-managed company failed in 1979 is not indicative of the current marketplace.
Did the Auto-Train Corporation have any profitable years?
 #1524442  by Tadman
 
According to this site (https://www.american-rails.com/auto.html) they did. First year of service saw $1.6m on $20m of revenue. Not amazing, but not bad for a first year.

Also, it appears from the Motorail page on wikipedia that the GWR reinstated a Motorail service on the Night Riviera to Penzance, but cut it in 2005. This is interesting because again there are a lot of outside factors at play. Although it's a long drive, it's a short sleeper - 1130pm to 7am. Perhaps travelers didn't want to use the night train, especially considering they could arrive in Penzance by midnight if leaving London after work, without waiting for the train.
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