The future of sleepers

[mtuandrew]

A new Broadway Limited would really be the ultimate expression of sleepers as a viable business travel option. That is, as a stand-alone train, and with a commitment from Norfolk Southern to keep the train moving. I’d take a slice-and-dice at PGH if it got that train back, but it could be better as its own dedicated train. (CHI-NEC could support a third daily.)

[CarterB]

A new Broadway Limited would really be the ultimate expression of sleepers as a viable business travel option. That is, as a stand-alone train, and with a commitment from Norfolk Southern to keep the train moving. I’d take a slice-and-dice at PGH if it got that train back, but it could be better as its own dedicated train. (CHI-NEC could support a third daily.)

I think a more likely scenario would be a "Broadway Ltd" NYP-PHL-PBG to connect with and have thru sleepers to CHI on the Capitol Ltd.
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[Joseph1]

I was under the impression that Amtrak sleeper trains were mostly used by people on vacation. I took the Sunset Limited from Los Angeles to New Orleans last month and I think most of the passengers were on vacation. As long as people want to take trains for vacation, sleepers will exist.

[mtuandrew]

I think a more likely scenario would be a "Broadway Ltd" NYP-PHL-PBG to connect with and have thru sleepers to CHI on the Capitol Ltd.
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Absolutely. I don’t think that’s the most effective or timely, but it is the most likely and would serve a useful market. It would also help satisfy Philly AF

[Greg Moore]

I was under the impression that Amtrak sleeper trains were mostly used by people on vacation. I took the Sunset Limited from Los Angeles to New Orleans last month and I think most of the passengers were on vacation. As long as people want to take trains for vacation, sleepers will exist.

There's definitely a lot of truth to that, especially for any of the western Long Distance trains like the Sunset Limited.
And quite frankly, that seems to be the way Amtrak markets them, if at all.

My point is, I think Amtrak is missing an opportunity to cater to a different demographic in certain city pair combinations.

[Ridgefielder]

So, I got thinking about a world where Amtrak promotes sleepers as an alternative to business travel, with a focus on leaving at or around dinner and arriving at or near the start of the business day. So this means leaving sometime between say 6:00 PM (this may be problematic in NYP with the number of available slots) and arriving at anytime between 6:00 AM and 9:00.

This is exactly the model the railroads used in the golden age of rail travel before WW2.

On the New York Central, for instance, the Great Steel Fleet was overwhelmingly scheduled for early AM arrival in Manhattan and late afternoon/early evening departure. The 20th Century Limited, for example, was scheduled in 1938 for a 5 p.m. departure from GCT and an 8:00 a.m. arrival at LaSalle Street Station, Chicago; the eastbound service left Chicago at 3:00 p.m. and arrived at GCT at 8:00 a.m. T

The Wolverine for Detroit followed the Century out of New York an hour later, with a 6:30 a.m. arrival in the Motor City; the eastbound left Detroit at 9:00 p.m. and got you into NY at 6:30 a.m.

And so it went on down the list, with trains like the Commodore Vanderbilt from Chicago, the Ohio State Limited from Columbus, the Southwestern Limited from St. Louis all due into Grand Central between 6:00 and 9:00 a.m., and all leaving between 3:00 and 8:00 p.m.

Really the way to pitch it as a business service is not to look at it as a replacement for flight so much as a replacement for a flight+hotel. It just so happens that your hotel moves you from, say, New York to Columbus, OH while you're asleep.

[ExCon90]

Hard to know what's going to appeal to people. In 1958 I worked for a Boston travel agency, and one of the big sellers was a roomette on the Owl to New York, with return in a parlor seat on the Merchants the next evening. Gradually over the course of the year such bookings were replaced by a flight out of Logan requiring getting out of bed at 0-dark-30, returning the same evening. I always marveled at people who would prefer that, but there were plenty of them. (And they were still excellent trains at that time, and flying was a different world from what we have now.)

[mtuandrew]

You’d find takers for this kind of NYP-CHI service if you could guarantee with rock-solid certainty a 3pm departure and 10am arrival. Among other things, that means:
-plenty of slack time on Amtrak rails (that is, HAR and ALB might have to be discharge-only or scheduled ridiculously early) to allow NS and CSX to slot Amtrak as early as possible
-overpowering the trains with two motors or three diesels, or working out an agreement for the host railroads to provide pilot power within an hour of disablement
-few but long station stops (ALB, BUF, CLE, TOL, SOB/EKH on the NYC route; NWK, PHL, HAR, PGH, CLE, TOL, SOB/EKH via the Pennsy)

In addition, plan on decent on-board dining (if not made-from-scratch then healthy & tasty par-cooked food, like most mid-level hotel restaurants) including a decent bar and coffeeshop, and lots of individual berths. Try out Slumbercoaches, try out sleeper beds, whichever.

[David Benton]

Amtrak could gauge overnite business traffic potential by studying Chicago -Memphis passengers. Probably the only current train with ideal overnite timings.
If there are few business travellers, then perhaps its not worth pursuing on other routes.
OTOH, demand may be constrained by lack od berths , I would imagine Business travellers would need a degree of flexibility.

[JoeG]

To attract business travelers, the train fare (including accommodations) has to be less than the airfare. Consider that now it is conceivable that a businessman could do a one day plane trip and return the same day. He has missed one day at his office. A sleeper trip would take at least 3 days round trip.

When I traveled for business I was told that in general I had to take a plane because it is cheaper. I worked in NY. The exceptions were day trips on the NEC. They allowed Acela.

The other problem, which several posters have pointed out, is that business travel requires punctuality. Amtrak just does not do this. Sure, some of the blame is the Class Ones but on its own NEC, its flagship product, Acela, has an on time record in the eighty-something percent range,and this is counting an arrival within 15 minutes as on time. European and Asian countries can schedule trains to the minute and sometimes better,and keep the schedules. In the US, can anyone imagine that the Pennsy or the Central would accept an eighty something on time percentage for the Broadway or the Century?

Running ontime on rails you dispatch (most of the nec) should be a no brainer. No super railroads or bullet trains needed. You need enough money for maintenance and things like protect engines and crews. And, you need a middle management that cares whether its trains run on time. Lack of a management that cares is Amtrak's single biggest problem. Until they fix this, from Delta Dick downward, Amtrak will not succeed in getting new passengers, especially business passengers. Maybe the first high profile change would be to retire Mr Anderson.

[Greg Moore]

To attract business travelers, the train fare (including accommodations) has to be less than the airfare. Consider that now it is conceivable that a businessman could do a one day plane trip and return the same day. He has missed one day at his office. A sleeper trip would take at least 3 days round trip.

I don't get how you get 3 days out of the proposed routes.
For example, right now, WAS-ATL.
You can leave after work, be there the next morning and leave the next evening. Yes, you miss two nights at home, but you're well rested at either end and haven't had to deal with an early morning flight, etc.

The point would be to design routes and market routes there 100% of the travel is in the evening/night, i.e time when you're already sleeping or not working.

That said, you are 100% right, the biggest issue I think in the marketing and making it viable would be the punctuality issue.

And yes, even on the NEC it's something Amtrak needs to work on.

[mtuandrew]

Another question: how comfortable are Amtrak’s berths? If I have a rolling hotel with a lumpy, thin mattress, I’m not going to be able to sleep and won’t wake refreshed for my meetings. Same if it’s too noisy.

[Greg Moore]

Fair question. Personally, I find the upper bunk on Viewliners, with both mattresses.. VERY comfortable and the train rocks me to sleep.

I personally sleep well and then love taking a shower in the morning before arriving.

[bostontrainguy]

Are they at least making up the beds now? The last time we took a sleeper (couple of years ago on the Silvers) they just put a folded blanket on the sheeted bed. Has that changed back to the way it used to be?

[ExCon90]

Even if all the above-mentioned wrinkles can be ironed out (punctuality in particular), a massive marketing effort will be necessary. Business travelers today tend to not even think about overnight travel by rail; the only people who even remember the Broadway/Century/Panama Ltd. era have long since retired.