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  • Amtrak Expansion Plan

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1540100  by Tadman
 
west point wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:32 pm Design build will be the way to go. Yes it is more expensive but not that much. Probably environmental concerns will need to be dropped. There will be more environmental damage if the economy takes too long to recover.
I'm a big design build proponent. Often you can find cost savings, or if the dollar amount is the same or more, the end product is much better and more modern. Also, if the end price is higher, you can ask the builders to remove some features. Design-build is a good way to maintain a budget, but all parties have to have the stone to do it.

I'd like to see more stations developed as design-build-operate. For example, on the Detroit route in places like Dearborn, instead of building a large hall that is mostly empty other than 6 pre-train hours, it would be nice to see a bustling transit-oriented development. Even if there is no real transit, just corridor trains. But consider what vibrance would be found in a building that has 25 luxury apartments, a smaller grocer, a small enterprise car location, a starbucks, a popeyes, etc... Consider also that the building would be paid for by others, and perhaps even return a dividend to the city or carrier.

Real estate dividends are one of the worst kept secrets of railroads.
 #1540108  by Jeff Smith
 
So beyond philosophy and stimulus, here's a project I'd like to see, and it's very selfish due to my current residence location which I hope is temporary: Service from ATL south along the NS mainline through Macon, Warner Robins, down to Valdosta. From thence perhaps across CSX to Waycross and Jax (a partial Sunset East), or onwards to Gaineville FL over the old Silver Palm route Amtrak abandoned.
 #1540112  by gokeefe
 
I think one of the other questions yet to be answered is how and where Amtrak will interchange with Brightline. They are very close to tripping over each other in Florida.
 #1540128  by Jeff Smith
 
Indeed. Myself, I've thought the Silver's should be turned over to Brightline operation if Siemens could come up with some sleepers. Or at least truncated to Jacksonville where transfers to Brightline on the FEC could take place. That will wait a bit until BL gets back on their feet. If I were Brightline, I'd be poking at NYS for Empire Service, too.

But we're talking contraction not expansion LOL.

I do think an interchange is possible both at some point in Jacksonville. Otherwise, there's really no connecting track.
 #1540145  by gokeefe
 
Fascinating that in effect history is repeating itself. The railroads are having something of a staring contest for now avoiding interaction with each other. Eventually an interline arrangement will likely be agreed to. However, if you look at the historical record it took the better part of 30-40 years before such things became common in the 1900s-1910s.

It would indeed be great for Amtrak to run to Jacksonville and connect with Brightline. I think that would be very positive for the entire national system and the Atlantic Coast Service in particular. Imagine an arrangement where Amtrak turns everything at Jacksonville instead of Miami. That would be quite the gamechanger. Orlando could also be a turning point once Brightline reaches that station.

Given all the other services in Florida now I doubt there would be any loss of service for intra-state ridership.
 #1540166  by Greg Moore
 
Your comment about staring contest reminds me of a thought I've had. Personally, for many reasons, I prefer Amtrak to be the national provider. However, more importantly, if things like Brightline succeed, ultimately what I really want is a single-ticketing system so I'm not trying to coordinate travel say West Palm Beach between Amtrak and Brightline. I don't care about a single seat necessarily, but I do care about a single reservation.
 #1540185  by Tadman
 
Allow me to pour some very cold water on this interline idea. We're not ready and might not ever be ready.

First, consider that although one can buy interline tickets with the airlines on Expedia, they are not guaranteed between rival carriers or alliances. It's just two tickets, one credit card swipe.

Second, consider that the system, interline or "interline", mostly works because the planes are mostly on time and mostly offer similar accommodations and level of service. The same goes for interline tickets bought through NS International, the best pan-euro rail ticket app in my opinion.

Third, consider the frequencies involved in airline or European railways. Brightline has it, Amtrak doesn't.

Fourth, consider the delay propensities of Amtrak's long distance operations.

Finally, ask "why"? Why does one train have to interline with another? Outside of this website, how many people care about train-to-train connections? They want seamless transport, not seamless railroads. Recall why I dislike Tri-Rail so thoroughly. I tried to use to transfer from FLL to MIA by Tri Rail. Come to find out the FLL station is miles away from the airport and connected by some hourly bus that nobody can find. I cabbed over to the station and waited for a train that never showed up. I cabbed to MIA and swore off the dumbest railroad ever.

If you can't match the frequencies, the service levels, the service offerings, the timeliness, and manage the communications and connections, it's a whole lot of broken promises and PO'ed travelers waiting for a shuttle bus or train that never shows up.

Here's a parting thought: If this were such a good idea, why hasn't commuter carrier with a long route partnered up with Amtrak for interline? They could partner Empire Service or NEC with Montauk Cannonball, Midwest Corridor trains with Metra BN and Milwaukee routes, or San Diegans with Metrolink. That possibility has been on the table since 1971 and nobody has ever even studied it to my knowledge (and we know things have to be studied for ten years before drawing a map, let alone selling tickets).
 #1540194  by bdawe
 
Tadman wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:59 am Here's a parting thought: If this were such a good idea, why hasn't commuter carrier with a long route partnered up with Amtrak for interline? They could partner Empire Service or NEC with Montauk Cannonball, Midwest Corridor trains with Metra BN and Milwaukee routes, or San Diegans with Metrolink. That possibility has been on the table since 1971 and nobody has ever even studied it to my knowledge (and we know things have to be studied for ten years before drawing a map, let alone selling tickets).
Arguably that is precisely what the Capital Corridor in California is - it's managed by BART on behalf of the same sort of coalition of local governments that would operate any multi-county transit service. It sells commuter passes, and has not-insubstantial numbers of daily riders
 #1540204  by Pensyfan19
 
Jeff Smith wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:00 pm It would certainly be hard to guarantee an Amtrak Atlantic Coast/Silver connection to Brightline.
Unless if Brightline uses Tampa Union Station along with Amtrak once that extension is built. I also heard that once the Jacksonville station is built for Birghtline, Amtrak would transfer services there. (Maybe Amtrak or Brightline can even restore service along the CSX S Line as direct service from Tampa to Jacksonville eventually. :wink: )
 #1540216  by bostontrainguy
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:11 pm
Jeff Smith wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:00 pm It would certainly be hard to guarantee an Amtrak Atlantic Coast/Silver connection to Brightline.
Unless if Brightline uses Tampa Union Station along with Amtrak once that extension is built. I also heard that once the Jacksonville station is built for Birghtline, Amtrak would transfer services there. (Maybe Amtrak or Brightline can even restore service along the CSX S Line as direct service from Tampa to Jacksonville eventually. :wink: )
The future Tampa Brightline ROW does come enticingly close to the existing Amtrak Station and it is possible to connect them up with a new junction on existing tracks.

There has been serious talk of rehabbing the old Jacksonville Terminal and reopening it. It is south of the present Amtrak station and the junction westward. It doesn't exactly fit with Brightline's M.O. but maybe they can all get creative and work something out like air rights over the tracks for real estate development.

FYI for those who may not be aware there is an Ambus on the old "S" Line.
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 #1540220  by Greg Moore
 
I think Tadman raises some valid points about Interline ticketing, but I'll counter with two:
1) Amtrak already does it. We just don't call it that when the other "train" is a Greyhound.
2) But the real advantage is that it makes the network appear larger. I would argue for places like BART, NJT, etc is that the locals who it appeals to the most already know it's there, or they're large enough, that someone from town is going to expect there to be SOMETHING they can switch too.

Brightline is in that weird middle spot where locals may know about it, but someone from NYC who wants to get to a city in Florida that Brightline serves, but Amtrak doesn't would appreciate the ability to ticket through.

That said, my original comment was actually broader than "Amtrak+others" it was really "whatever national railroads there are. (i.e. if some of the proposals to break up Amtrak ever come to fruition.) In other words, if I want to take the train from ALB to ABQ, I don't want to care about WHO is carrying me as much as there's a way to get my tickets in one place. Now, that said, *I* personally think things work better as a single national system, but just saying, that HOW it's done (i.e. one national system vs. multiple regional interstate carriers) isn't as important to the average rider as much as that it can be done (i.e. a single place to get tickets.)
 #1540225  by mtuandrew
 
Greg: like listing Amtrak/VIA/regional trains and Greyhound/regional buses on the big travel websites e.g. Travelocity or Expedia? They already offer rental cars, a train ticket doesn’t seem hard.

Let’s call it “Amtrak Expansion into new websites.”
 #1540252  by Jeff Smith
 
Speaking of extensions, the mention of Tampa does raise interesting possibilities. Regarding the terminal, Tampa owns it, so I imagine if track access can be worked out, it could serve both Amtrak and Brightline. Would Brightline be interested in that terminal? Or Jacksonville's terminal? The Union terminal there was originally owned by the FEC, and is now part of the convention center. I'd be surprised if they weren't, and could likely find real estate development projects close by.

Back to Tampa, I've always thought the route of the Star is very peculiar, in that it backtracks to Lakeland before heading south. I'm really not familiar with the west coast of Florida, but in researching the Star and Meteor I know one or the other used to extend past Tampa. Looking at a Google map, though, I'm hard pressed to envision a map going beyond Tampa. Tampa to me seems like it should be the terminus for the Star.

As for the interline discussion, I would think it would be much more possible if Brightline took over the Atlantic Coast service starting at DC, perhaps under contract with Amtrak? Wasn't there a provision in a recent law allowing others to bid for Amtrak services? Again, we're talking contraction, not expansion, but I think it could serve as a model.
bostontrainguy wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:01 pm
Pensyfan19 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:11 pm
Jeff Smith wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:00 pm It would certainly be hard to guarantee an Amtrak Atlantic Coast/Silver connection to Brightline.
Unless if Brightline uses Tampa Union Station along with Amtrak once that extension is built. I also heard that once the Jacksonville station is built for Birghtline, Amtrak would transfer services there. (Maybe Amtrak or Brightline can even restore service along the CSX S Line as direct service from Tampa to Jacksonville eventually. :wink: )
The future Tampa Brightline ROW does come enticingly close to the existing Amtrak Station and it is possible to connect them up with a new junction on existing tracks.

There has been serious talk of rehabbing the old Jacksonville Terminal and reopening it. It is south of the present Amtrak station and the junction westward. It doesn't exactly fit with Brightline's M.O. but maybe they can all get creative and work something out like air rights over the tracks for real estate development.

FYI for those who may not be aware there is an Ambus on the old "S" Line.
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