Usage of new diners - split from v2 thread

[jp1822]

Anyone heard anything about more car releases from CAF? Hopefully they will get out some more baggage-dorms and maybe a sleeper or two soon.

Nope, but I've seen recent photos of the prototype Viewliner diner 8400 being used along with old Heritage cars to meet axle count requirements in Illinois. Sickening.

These Viewliner Diners have revenue opportunity on day trains like the Vermonter, Adirondack, Pennsylvanian, Maple Leaf, etc. where they could operate in tandem with a business class Amfleet car. Like with VIA's Renaissance business class and Renaissance service car, the Viewliner Diner serves as a "viewing car" for those booked in the "business class" car. Re-brand it as "custom class" or touring class so it makes sense to the traveller that may be interested in buying a ticket here. Advertise that these Viewliner Diners are BRAND NEW and state of the art viewing cars. Get the upcharge accordingly.

Are business travellers really travelling through the Green Mountain State in the business class car? NO! If re-branded as a custom class car or touring class, knowing you have access to a "Viewliner" car that offers double row of windows for fall foliage viewing, tables, and booths, it's a nice upsell the State of Vermont and Amtrak could yield the benefit - if it wanted to. You don't need to operate the diner or kitchen portion. Close that off. Just operate the seating area. A Vermonter, or Adirondack, box lunch can be available for purchase in the cafe car and enjoyed in the Viewliner Diner/Sightseeing Car.

As the Vermonter operates on the NEC though, do you realize how many business folks out of New Haven, NYC, Newark, Philly, and Baltimore would flock to use the Viewliner Diner - as a work station area? HUGE! The LSA can wipe the tables down at NYP, New Haven, Springfield, White River Jct.

This can be repeated on other routes too and would only bring more revenue in without burdening any cost - or no more cost than currently running it EMPTY to fill an axle requirement. Stupidest assignment for this car I've ever heard of. Brand new multi-million dollar state of the art passenger car rolling back and forth to fulfill an axle requirement and not open to anyone.

And then Amtrak will complain that the "frame" is cracked or the car has excessive wear and tear and will need to be retired. To do this especially with the rebuilt prototype diner - wreckless.

[nova08]

As the Vermonter operates on the NEC though, do you realize how many business folks out of New Haven, NYC, Newark, Philly, and Baltimore would flock to use the Viewliner Diner - as a work station area? HUGE! The LSA can wipe the tables down at NYP, New Haven, Springfield, White River Jct.

Completely agree on this point. Sell it as a table car or something and charge something between coach and business. I typically go directly to the cafe on a Regional to find a table seat. I really like the Acela tables and prefer these two over a seatback tray.

[ApproachMedium]

Yea thats a cool idea, but in the end its a dining car with crappy seats with no upper back support, no recline, no legroom, AC thats always freezing cold year round, and less than half the seats. If you toted the car along as an additional car provided to those in biz class, maybe. But using it to sell tix on its own, no way. It also would not be able to replace the Cafe as the cafe car provides dual service as a table car for cafe service and one end is biz class. if you sold the tables to business class passengers and left no tables for those to eat at, and crews to park at, you will have problems. The other HUGE issue with that car, NO safe place to put the luggage! and its NOT going in the kitchen area.

[jp1822]

Yea thats a cool idea, but in the end its a dining car with crappy seats with no upper back support, no recline, no legroom, AC thats always freezing cold year round, and less than half the seats. If you toted the car along as an additional car provided to those in biz class, maybe. But using it to sell tix on its own, no way. It also would not be able to replace the Cafe as the cafe car provides dual service as a table car for cafe service and one end is biz class. if you sold the tables to business class passengers and left no tables for those to eat at, and crews to park at, you will have problems. The other HUGE issue with that car, NO safe place to put the luggage! and its NOT going in the kitchen area.

The SIMPLE proposal was to:

1) Add to a state supported train or "daytime long distance train" that carried a "business class" option (change out the half business class/half cafe for a full Amfleet II coach)
2) Couple it as part of the "business class fare"
3) Offer only as a table/booth seating car to those booked in "business class" - so you can sit in your Amfleet seat or go sit in the Viewliner.
4) It is co-joined with the business class fare, JUST LIKE Renaissance Service Cars are linked to Business Class fare on VIA (just no food, just nice viewing, table seating to work and view at).
5) Make it the last car on the train (behind the "business class car" so that it's differentiated and has a more controlled access.

It's the KISS method - Keep it simple stu8!$

- don't have it sell tickets as a stand alone (requires extra logistics)
- it does NOT replace the cafe car because you are only using it as a table/booth seating car with NO food being offered (that adds cost, Amtrak doesn't want to add cost)
- you still have the regular cafe car in tow to eat at, crew to park at, and a regular business class Amfleet coach to handle any luggage. NO need to put it in the kitchen; that's closed/locked.

If the State Supported trains want to do "more" with said Viewliner Dining Car in their territory - that's their choice and their expense etc. Amtrak's ONLY putting a surplus car in operation for an upsell charge (e.g. to garner a higher business class fare) - rather than riding it around the Midwest to provide an axle count and no value to passengers, or parking them in Hialeah.

By "coupling it" to the business class fare, there's a better argument or case to increase the business class fare since you are expanding the overall product offering (a nice viewing car and place to use table seating). As it enters the NEC - like on the Vermonter - can guarantee it would be a hit with business class folks as this is truly where many business class folks camp out during rush hour. I've done it myself LOTS of times.

Amtrak would be better off calling it "custom class" or "touring class" - a re-branded class - if this ever came to pass as that would bring a different connotation for those travelling through say Vermont. Most are not "business" travelers using this train in the Green Mountain State. Most would see it as an upgrade to regular coach class - hence "custom" or "touring." Would keep it separate from the "business class" brand too in case more was offered by the states AND the price were increased for the use of "two" cars per say.

VIA has done this with some of its trains and its worked well for an upsell/upcharge. Not expecting the same level of service, just something as simple as possible that makes sense and would add $$$ to the till. Lets not get too crazy. Amtrak can't handle that.

[Ryand-Smith]

Yea thats a cool idea, but in the end its a dining car with crappy seats with no upper back support, no recline, no legroom, AC thats always freezing cold year round, and less than half the seats. If you toted the car along as an additional car provided to those in biz class, maybe. But using it to sell tix on its own, no way. It also would not be able to replace the Cafe as the cafe car provides dual service as a table car for cafe service and one end is biz class. if you sold the tables to business class passengers and left no tables for those to eat at, and crews to park at, you will have problems. The other HUGE issue with that car, NO safe place to put the luggage! and its NOT going in the kitchen area.

The SIMPLE proposal was to:

1) Add to a state supported train or "daytime long distance train" that carried a "business class" option (change out the half business class/half cafe for a full Amfleet II coach)
2) Couple it as part of the "business class fare"
3) Offer only as a table/booth seating car to those booked in "business class" - so you can sit in your Amfleet seat or go sit in the Viewliner.
4) It is co-joined with the business class fare, JUST LIKE Renaissance Service Cars are linked to Business Class fare on VIA (just no food, just nice viewing, table seating to work and view at).
5) Make it the last car on the train (behind the "business class car" so that it's differentiated and has a more controlled access.

It's the KISS method - Keep it simple stu8!$

- don't have it sell tickets as a stand alone (requires extra logistics)
- it does NOT replace the cafe car because you are only using it as a table/booth seating car with NO food being offered (that adds cost, Amtrak doesn't want to add cost)
- you still have the regular cafe car in tow to eat at, crew to park at, and a regular business class Amfleet coach to handle any luggage. NO need to put it in the kitchen; that's closed/locked.

If the State Supported trains want to do "more" with said Viewliner Dining Car in their territory - that's their choice and their expense etc. Amtrak's ONLY putting a surplus car in operation for an upsell charge (e.g. to garner a higher business class fare) - rather than riding it around the Midwest to provide an axle count and no value to passengers, or parking them in Hialeah.

By "coupling it" to the business class fare, there's a better argument or case to increase the business class fare since you are expanding the overall product offering (a nice viewing car and place to use table seating). As it enters the NEC - like on the Vermonter - can guarantee it would be a hit with business class folks as this is truly where many business class folks camp out during rush hour. I've done it myself LOTS of times.

Amtrak would be better off calling it "custom class" or "touring class" - a re-branded class - if this ever came to pass as that would bring a different connotation for those travelling through say Vermont. Most are not "business" travelers using this train in the Green Mountain State. Most would see it as an upgrade to regular coach class - hence "custom" or "touring." Would keep it separate from the "business class" brand too in case more was offered by the states AND the price were increased for the use of "two" cars per say.

VIA has done this with some of its trains and its worked well for an upsell/upcharge. Not expecting the same level of service, just something as simple as possible that makes sense and would add $$$ to the till. Lets not get too crazy. Amtrak can't handle that.

So its Premium Economy then (thats the generally accepted term for nicer than baseline but still baseline seats)

[electricron]

Amtrak would be better off calling it "custom class" or "touring class" - a re-branded class - if this ever came to pass as that would bring a different connotation for those travelling through say Vermont. Most are not "business" travelers using this train in the Green Mountain State. Most would see it as an upgrade to regular coach class - hence "custom" or "touring." Would keep it separate from the "business class" brand too in case more was offered by the states AND the price were increased for the use of "two" cars per say.

VIA has done this with some of its trains and its worked well for an upsell/upcharge. Not expecting the same level of service, just something as simple as possible that makes sense and would add $$$ to the till. Lets not get too crazy. Amtrak can't handle that.

So its Premium Economy then (thats the generally accepted term for nicer than baseline but still baseline seats)

Why are many of you proposing an all new class of service for a state subsidize train when the state hasn't asked for it, and has no intentions to ever subsidize it? Fitting round pegs into square holes seems like a complete waste of time and resources, imho.
It's not like at the auto dealership when the dealer throws in a free extra that's part of a huge special edition model, Amtrak is going to want to be reimburse for the extra car and service.

[mtuandrew]

Why are many of you proposing an all new class of service for a state subsidize train when the state hasn't asked for it, and has no intentions to ever subsidize it? Fitting round pegs into square holes seems like a complete waste of time and resources, imho.
It's not like at the auto dealership when the dealer throws in a free extra that's part of a huge special edition model, Amtrak is going to want to be reimburse for the extra car and service.

Exactly. These cars are diners, not business cars; they should be used as diners or at least cafe/lounges. If they end up on state-supported service it would most likely be as Amtrak’s prerogative* in lieu of an Amfleet or Horizon cafe. Otherwise that’s a big waste of fuel to drag around for no apparent benefit to Amtrak, only to a select minority of passengers who wouldn’t be paying for the privilege.

*though core system medium-distance daylight trains really ought to have a full diner open to the public if/when Amtrak returns to that service model - looking at the Palmetto in particular

[jp1822]

Why are many of you proposing an all new class of service for a state subsidize train when the state hasn't asked for it, and has no intentions to ever subsidize it? Fitting round pegs into square holes seems like a complete waste of time and resources, imho.
It's not like at the auto dealership when the dealer throws in a free extra that's part of a huge special edition model, Amtrak is going to want to be reimburse for the extra car and service.

Exactly. These cars are diners, not business cars; they should be used as diners or at least cafe/lounges. If they end up on state-supported service it would most likely be as Amtrak’s prerogative* in lieu of an Amfleet or Horizon cafe. Otherwise that’s a big waste of fuel to drag around for no apparent benefit to Amtrak, only to a select minority of passengers who wouldn’t be paying for the privilege.

*though core system medium-distance daylight trains really ought to have a full diner open to the public if/when Amtrak returns to that service model - looking at the Palmetto in particular

Full diner operation is not in the cards.........Hence, this was a suggestion ONLY because of the ridiculousness of Amtrak putting Viewliner Diners in DEAD HEAD service just to get axle count requirements on the Midwest Trains. That makes more sense than trying to operate it as a "lounge/table car" on a long distance day train - state supported or not? And instead of seeing the Viewliner Diners PARKED, could they be used for SOMETHING that would benefit passengers and NOT axle requirement counts that puts them into a complete WASTE of resource and jeopardizes their overall wear and tear. Didn't we just get rid of Heritage Diners because they were old, past their useful life, and had too much wear and tear? Running BRAND NEW diners back and forth for pure purpose of filling out axle requirement on Midwest trains puts them in their primary purposes and doesn't give them any unneeded wear and tear? I don't think so.

NOTE that this thread was split off from another so some context may have been lost.

Only 11 VIEWLINER DINERS are being used on a regular basis (4, Meteor, 4 Crescent, 3 Lake Shore) out of roughly 21 delivered (if not a couple more - lost count), let alone the prototype Indianapolis. Might be better to find some passenger use for them than running them around in non-passenger use, or just sitting on the sidelines. We all know what happens with passenger cars that stay parked. They'll cost more to put BACK into service............

Amtrak makes a HUGE investment in brand new Viewliner Diners (great viewing car etc.) only to see 11 in regular service and the rest either PARKED or being dragged around the Midwest to meet axle requirements for a given train? How much are they charging to dead-head it for axle requirement? Not trying to push to the states for a fee - stick it on a long distance day-train paired with a business car to try and get increased revenue. Do SOMETHING with these cars that are truly great, but nearly half the fleet is SITTING. I don't see Amtrak putting them on the Cardinal or Silver Star any time soon IMHO. And even at that, it's only an additional 6 Diners required. Amtrak's not in the mode of adding onboard dining staff, but rather subtracting and replacing with box meals. Don't even need a diner to that quite frankly! So even with 25 Viewliner diners delivered, plus Indianapolis (26 total), 17 would only be used in current single level LD service. And to serve boxed meals...........That's a reserve of over 30%, more than Amtrak requires. Diners as delivered is NOT how Amtrak plans to use them, plain and simple. What else can they be used for rather than totally re-doing the cars into cafe/lounges for more money? One suggestion proposed that wouldn't add any staff and perhaps enhance a service class/revenue.

Maybe things will change in the future, but WHAT can be done now on a simple level and serve passengers, not empty space just for axle requirement.

[mtuandrew]

Then use the V-IIs as cafe cars, or diner-lites if that concept is still current. They have huge fridges and shelf space, even if their seating is more limited than Amfleet full cafes. Stick the elderly Amfleet full cafes on axle count duty. No-brainer to me.

[jp1822]

Then use the V-IIs as cafe cars, or diner-lites if that concept is still current. They have huge fridges and shelf space, even if their seating is more limited than Amfleet full cafes. Stick the elderly Amfleet full cafes on axle count duty. No-brainer to me.

Re-purposing them as cafe cars or diner lite cars = re-engineering = more costs $$$$ to expend on them. Amtrak has already spent a high price for this equipment that has taken YEARS to get delivered.....perhaps the longest procurement process of any Amtrak equipment....

And then, as you mention, "if the concept is still current." That's a big and loaded question to answer!

Before re-engineering cars and spending more money, Amtrak needs to define how it moves forward in the F&B world and how F&B fits into the LD model - if there is to be one.... The Amfleet diner lite cars that were re-engineered are hardly a master piece (more cons than pros with these cars), and as much as the Superliner I diners needed an overhaul, not sure if the overall concept was met in the Cross Country Cafe car that emerged.....but again, Amtrak customers got a refurbished Superliner I diner that was needed. But only half of the car really functions as useful....right now......

Amtrak still has Heritage Baggage cars that could be used for axle count. Not all are being sold, and plenty still on property. There's other options too..... V-II's make no sense as just providing axle count for a Midwest corridor train. I find the "pick" to use VII diners as an interesting choice.

The current VII's were ordered when it was thought that the "general" 1950s diner concept would continue on LD trains AND there may be an expansion (or through cars added to some LD trains). Specifically, through cars to/from Pennsylvanian and Capitol Limited (Viewliner Diner, Sleeper, coach). It had also been presumed that the Silver Star would continue with dining services and the Cardinal would be expanded.....

Thus:

Meteor - 4 diners
Star - 4 diners
Crescent - 4 diners
Lake Shore - 3 diners
Cardinal - 3 diners (hope to go daily)
Pennsylvanian/Capitol Limited through cars to Chicago - 3 diners

TOTAL - 21 Viewliners required; 26 available including Indianapolis; 20% reserve factor (as is pretty normal)

This has all changed now! Amtrak is looking to do a study on all F&B service (RFI was in the works).

One of the biggest "pros" with the Viewliner in general is the double row of windows to see the scenery. Another for the diners is the table seating. Many on/off the corridors like the table seating. Visit any corridor train at rush hour with business folks on them. Many camp out in the cafe car just for the table seating!

So for long distance day trains (state or non-state supported - whatever!), couple the VII diner with the business class car and charge one fee, but an increased fee, because you have created greater value.... That at least yields added revenue than just head heading or parking the VII diners.

Since Amtrak:

- can't figure out what to do with these cars in the F&B world right now
- should probably not spend any more funds to re-engineer the car (what will their "studies" yield?)
- doesn't want to burden the accounting with operating expense by putting any "services" in this car
- does NOT want to spend either capital or operating costs on these new cars as delivered

Amtrak should try to keep them in some sort of general operation that perhaps is advantageous to the passengers (hey, if they are good enough to dead head around, guess they are good for some service right?).

As VIA rail pairs Renaissance Service Cars with its business class car (corridor train) or a Park Car with its Touring class car (eg on Prince Rupert train) and charges MORE for it, why couldn't Amtrak try this for its long distance day trains (state or non-state supported)?

The idea is you'd get your regular seat in coach, and option to go to the Viewliner II for VIEWING or for having a table seat to do work etc. Amtrak could charge more than just a "business class" fare - hence a name change to custom, touring, economy plus, class. The kitchen area stays closed. If the State of Vermont or NY or PA want to do something special here in this car, that's for them to coordinate and chose. NY got headlines with the Great Dome attached! I am sure that did an uptick for ridership. Perhaps a one-time infusion, but it might get people interested. And does business class really make sense anyway for some of these trains?

Do it as a trial for only a few trains. There's only so many extra VII's right now anyway....but it's enough!

Western LD trains have the Superliner Sightseer Car, which eastern trains don't. Granted, the Superliner Sightseer has a lower level cafe in it. But sometimes the cafe operates out of the Cross Country Cafe and the Sightseer Car is still strung along!

Again, a simple way to get these cars used in some way - and not parked - to passenger advantage, and exposing their greatest asset - the VIEWING.

When Amtrak figures out its F&B plan in the next year or so, then perhaps these cars get used as engineered or a re-engineer then...In the mean time....

What to do at low or minimal cost, but could still bring in some revenue.....

[mtuandrew]

jp: I’d love to get into a V-II diner and see what it would take to convert to a quick-and-dirty cafe. A business reserved-workspace car might sell on some NEC trains though, if offered reliably, and I think we are both in agreement that the windows and tables are a huge selling point.

[jp1822]

It would be nice as a cafe, and there could be some really great options in such a conversion. There are pictures and layout plans online of the Viewliner II Diner.

Former Amtrak Pres. David Gunn had suggested that the Viewliner Diners (or what we now know as Viewliner II Diners etc.) be built with flexibility, where by for say the Cardinal, they could perhaps have a smaller kitchen of sorts, and operate all "cafe" operations out of the Viewliner Diner (all served out of one car). Thus it's a dual purpose. Some of the Heritage Diner Rebuild "kits" - Terimosa (spelling) - had that area of counter and stools if you recall. If the Viewliners had something like the the side it may have helped in doing a quick modification. But then the flipside argument was made that these cars would be of the minority, Amtrak needed more cars with full service dining capability and a more modern and efficient kitchen so as to streamline operations. That was roughly in 2005. It makes sense, it's just that this order took forever to fulfill, didn't come cheap and without its own set of problems, and if a reconfigure is done in any way (small, quick, etc.) would it invalidate a warranty of any sort (particularly on the HVAC).

My other big concern - Anderson leaves in one year and all the sudden a reversal on the thinking of LD service happens, including a reversal that the Viewliner Diners should operate as they were originally ordered. Can any re-engineering be flipped back with out too much outcry - "look how much money we took to build it, look how much money we looked to convert it, look how much money it now will take to put it all back together." Amtrak reads like the Story of Humpty Dumpty. It's so sad.

On a hypothetical, if I were booking on the Vermonter train from Essex-Burlington, VT, to NYC business class fare would likely be around $100 (comparable to NYC to Pittsburgh, and likely even NYC to Plattsburgh IF offered on the Adirondack). I realize the Adirondack doesn't offer business class right now, but that route would be perfect for this! So on the Vermonter, example, I'd have my "seat" in what Amtrak calls now its Amfleet full business class car. Would I be booking as part of a business trip - NO. In all my trips north of Springfild, MA, not sure if I've EVER run into someone on a pure "business" trip aboard the train. Again - should Amtrak re-brand this "business class" name outside of the NEC and certain corridors? It would make a LOT of sense, and follow VIA's model to a degree. Back to the Vermonter....while onboard I'd probably be on my laptop or iPad doing work though! And I am onboard from 10 am to nearly 6:30 pm (all day!!!) but enjoying some of the BEST scenery through the Green Mountain State. I'd be more than willing to pay an extra $25 for access to a Viewliner Diner as part of my FULL fare - so hence I'd be paying not $100 but $125, along with everyone else who elects to chose this "class" of service - whatever it is called. Everyone would have their seat in the Amfleet business class car and free to take a seat at will in the Viewliner Diner with its double row of windows and table seating - a place I could spread out a bit with iPad in hand to keep busy as needed. It's likely a better way to see this scenic route than out my Amfleet slit window. Hopefully some marketing would make me feel that the $125 I am paying is worth the value...... The fact that it's among Amtrak's newest cars in the fleet.....also a plus. Great place to enjoy something I purchased from the cafe car too.

Amtrak would be able to collect at least a 25% increase in revenue for people who now booked what was called "business class." To me you'd have a win-win with increased revenue and this could be added tomorrow if Amtrak wanted to. Existing reservation prices honored. New reservation prices would have said increase. I get the "let's convert to a cafe" but that may take some convincing and more heartache to realization. I bet the addition of this car could yield easily $1,000 per run on an incremental basis (new price less existing business class price x riders booking this class). Even if it is $500 - better than dead-heading it for axle count!

I believe Amtrak has 23 Viewliner II's now actually, with Indianapolis around as well, for a total of 24. Awaiting for two more for delivery? And only 11 are required in regular service with no clear plan from Amtrak as to what they will do with the remaining 13 cars. Newest, expensive, and perhaps best cars in the fleet for Eastern single level trains where Amfleet II's are most dominant. If they are at least programmed to give some revenue generation - will that get them out of the barn in any way?

Am I being a little stubborn about the Viewliner II Diner usage in my posts - yes. And that''s largely because I see Amtrak doing something really stupid with these nice new cars right now (parking or using them for dead-head purpose for axle count). It's avoidable. They could actually help generate revenue for Amtrak......What would a private company do? No disrespect meant in my postings.

[R36 Combine Coach]

It would be nice as a cafe, and there could be some really great options in such a conversion. There are pictures and layout plans online of the Viewliner II Diner. Former Amtrak Pres. David Gunn had suggested that the Viewliner Diners (or what we now know as Viewliner II Diners etc.) be built with flexibility, where by for say the Cardinal, they could perhaps have a smaller kitchen of sorts, and operate all "cafe" operations out of the Viewliner Diner (all served out of one car). Thus it's a dual purpose. Some of the Heritage Diner Rebuild "kits" - Terimosa (spelling) - had that area of counter and stools if you recall. If the Viewliners had something like the the side it may have helped in doing a quick modification.

These plans seem to foreshadow the diner lite program and the "Cross Country Café", both launched in 2007.

Would a table/diner-lounge configuration also work on the overnight Regional, if positioned as a flagship corridor train of sorts? Could also serve coffee and light pastries in the AM when nearing the terminal.

[mtuandrew]

No disrespect taken or implied in my own posts either, jp. You’re making a lot of good points.

What about selling these cars as First Class daylight seating on Regionals? Yes, the seats suck. Do they suck enough to keep people from paying extra for their own full bench seat? What about half a table to themself? How about an attendant with free beverages and snacks?

[ryanov]

The only time I'd pick that is over standing.