Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

[ryanov]

NJ Transit had their state aid fall from 348 million in 2009 to 33 million today. I find it completely impossible to believe that they think Amtrak is in a significantly different position.

[Backshophoss]

Amtrak took over the NEC from PC in pretty poor condition,it has taken years to get to a point of decent condition.
But the expansion of commuter service by the LIRR and NJT as well as moving the Empire service from GCT to Penn over time
started to over whelm the station's facilities,Sandy's damage have speedup the decay process in the ties.
While Amtrak had planned to do trackwork at Penn,the sideswipe accident,along with the NJT MLV derailment forced the issue.
Now the "Prefect Storm" of Sandy damage in the North(Hudson)River tubes,the misguided ARC project,the continued ESA project
at Harold,the REAL need to get Gateway tunnel built,and now the needed trackwork blitz at Penn are parts of this "storm".
The money NEEDED to do this right has never been there from the get go,Amtrak has been a very good "landloard" to NJT by allowing
their expanded services like Midtown Direct. LIRR,along with the MTA seem to play well together,and get what they can get done
together like the PSCC that controls all movements thru Penn Station and Harold/Sunnyside yard areas.

All 3 RR's will share the pain of service disruptions while the trackwork blitz is done over the summer at Penn.
NJT,use the Waterfront connection to Hoboken to divert some service.

[eolesen]

The problem is that everywants things fixed but nobody wants to pay for it or share in the pain.

Nobody has the chutzpah to rip off the bandaid, and temporarily cut 10% each from LIRR and NJT and have those services terminate outside Manhattan (i.e. Jamaica and Hoboken).

Yeah, it will suck. But it needs to be done.

[EuroStar]

As long as the politics require policies to subsidize all riders 80% of the true costs to run the trains and provide privileged riders a 90% subsidy, there is no money left for keeping the trains running.
This is what fiscal conservatives have been warning about for decades and it is coming home to roost!
We reap what we sow.

Don't forget that we subsidize all drivers at least the same amount, but the same fiscal conservatives rarely if ever complain about that. Overall for the US gas taxes (federal and state) and tolls cover only about half of all expenditure on roads (and of course the number varies from state to state). Toll all roads, so that everyone pays the true cost of driving (the same way as railroads pay the true cost of their tracks) and you would be amazed how the balance between rail and road travel will change.

Back to topic. Here is a link that says that they will close 3 tracks at a time http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Pe ... 80744.html. While I imagine they have a good reason for doing it, I do not understand why 3 instead of 2? I would have guessed that they would have taken out two tracks between two platforms fix them and then move onto the next two. What does a third track give them? The third track is always across a platform from the other two, so you cannot use machinery stationed there to work across the platform. If it was just for staging machinery, they could have staged it in one of the yards. While I am not saying that what they are planning to do is wrong, why are they doing it this way? Why 3 tracks?

[east point]

So far Amtrak site shows 7 NYP <> PHL round trips cancelled. Also Crescent cancelled NYP <> WASH. That will allow one consist to be broken up and assigned to other single level trains during the high season travel ?. Diner situation will also be some be some what relieved ? How the WASH turns will work out for MIA servicing is unknown ?

[njrailbird]

How can you tell Amtrak has made those cancellations?

[east point]

Cancellations can be determined by going to Amtrak website and seeing same trips show sold out each day

[njrailbird]

Ah, I see. Thanks for the tip.

[electricron]

Don't forget that we subsidize all drivers at least the same amount, but the same fiscal conservatives rarely if ever complain about that. Overall for the US gas taxes (federal and state) and tolls cover only about half of all expenditure on roads (and of course the number varies from state to state). Toll all roads, so that everyone pays the true cost of driving (the same way as railroads pay the true cost of their tracks) and you would be amazed how the balance between rail and road travel will change.

I think you missed my point entirely! Sure, the government has money to spend on roads. They would also have more money to spend on railroads too - if they were not paying the majority of the costs for running the trains.
When's the last time the government subsidized buying your car, subsidizng your auto insurance payments, subsidizing the costs of the fuel, or subsiding the costs of maintaining your car?

It's not how much the government subsidizes as much as what they are subsidizing. Instead of subsiding rail fares the government should be subsiding railroad infrastructure - just like they do for seaways, highways, and airways.

What condition do you believe the railroad infrastructure would be if the $50 Billion used in the last 50 years to subsidize Amtrak services had instead been spent on railroad infrastructure, Penn Station and the tunnels approaching it and the various bridges needing replacing, instead of subsiding rail fares?

[BandA]

I think Electricron is on to something, while EuroStar is repeating the same old truisms. I live near a toll road that makes an operating profit that is used to subsidize other non-tolled roads. I can pay the toll, maintenance costs and fuel for my car for about half what it costs the MBTA Commuter Rail to travel the same distance. And I am driving with 80% of the seats empty.

Of course, if Amtrak hadn't been subsidized would Penn Station still exist?

[railfan365]

In regard to chaning service patterns to have some trains temporarilly go to or through other stations than Penn, I,m wondering if Amtrak's Empoire trains can be reouted to Grand Central Terminal. GCT does have a loop for turning single ended trains, and the Bronx paert of that is just a matter of swiitching all trains in the same direction.

[Backshophoss]

While the Empire Connector is blocked during the trackwork blitz,3 ALB-NYP Round trips will go to GCT.
Only the LD's will take the Detour Via the MO wye to New Rochelle for the reverse tow-in to Penn,
That would be the Lake Shore Ltd ,Maple Leaf,and the Adironack.

Albany based Amtrak T&E crews are taking qualifying trips to GCT and to New Rochelle for the upcoming detours.

[Amtrak7]

While the Empire Connector is blocked during the trackwork blitz,3 ALB-NYP Round trips will go to GCT.
Only the LD's will take the Detour Via the MO wye to New Rochelle for the reverse tow-in to Penn,
That would be the Lake Shore Ltd ,Maple Leaf,and the Adironack.

Albany based Amtrak T&E crews are taking qualifying trips to GCT and to New Rochelle for the upcoming detours.

What about the other Empire Service trains? There's more than 6 roundtrips a day.

[Backshophoss]

Figure on Amtrak combining/splitting some trips at Albany to/from NY City.

[michaelk]

NJ TRANSIT rail customers have been forced to deal with delays, derailments and unreliable service because Amtrak, which owns the tracks our service relies upon, has neglected the maintenance of its critical infrastructure for years. For three-quarters of NJ TRANSIT rail customers travel patterns will not be modified, including the Trenton to New York Northeast Corridor Line. However, delays on all rail lines, except for the Atlantic City Rail line, are inevitable."

How would you re-write that to make it honest?

NJ TRANSIT rail customers have been forced to deal with delays, derailments and unreliable service because of decades of underfunding of critical infrastructure by both states and the federal government. Delays on all rail lines leading to Hoboken and New York are inevitable, as is truncation of Midtown Direct service to Hoboken, and reliable funding mechanisms furnishing billions of dollars yearly are required to prevent them from remaining the norm.

totally get that the second is more complete but really what's false about the original?

And more importantly what's the harm?

Christie is NEVER going to publish the more complete version so why waste energy on it? Go ahead and let him rile the commuters up against Amtrak under funding in the hopes they call Booker, Menendez or their representatives to complete. Make the commuters understand that it's a problem with NJT and Amtrak BOTH.

Heck maybe Booker answer the phone and says "Yep, I'm on it, I'll work tirelessly to better fund Amtrak and rail infrastructure. BUT please do take the time to call your state chumps and tell them to cough up money for NJT also"

A win win.