Penn Station Emergency Repairs: Trackwork, etc.

[EuroStar]

My maps of Penn Station indicate that the Empire Service can access tracks 1 to 8. If they are not planning to run a single train from/to Albany through the Empire Connection I see only two possibilities: either all tracks below 8 will not be available from the west, or Amtrak is leaving whatever will remain available to NJT. In the first case tracks 1-4 will be completely out of service while 5-8 will be available from the east only. Even with the detour to New Rochelle there are not enough Amtrak trains that could use the capacity of 5-8, so I would not be surprised to see LIRR trains on some of them some of the time. The second case can occur only if they work on say Ladder U first while ladder M remains in service and the other way around. Trains will first need to go in and then out single file (as opposed to the simultaneous moves available now). In either case the reduction in capacity seems significant enough that Midtown Direct service is guaranteed to go to Hoboken for the duration of the work. I am assuming that the Acelas and the Regionals will pretty much not have any cancellations while the Keystones will either be cut to Philladelpia or best case Newark. I do not understand well enough LIRR scheduling to even venture to guess what they will cancel/change.

There are a bunch for switch frogs and wooden ties on one of the tracks in the west throat of the station (that portion is out of service).

[Allouette]

As someone noted above, station tracks 1-4 do not have third rail, so they can't be used by Empire Service trains.

[Railjunkie]

IF what I last posted about the Empire Tunnel is true it wont matter what ladder tracks or otherwise they work on. Its the only way in and out for Empire trains. The detour to New Rochelle has been done before and will again. Trains will still get turned at Sunnyside just we may leave off tracks we normally wouldnt. As I posted previously 1-4 are stub ended and more importantly they have no third rail. So IF we do the New Rochelle thing it would just add to many extra steps to a train that has already taken an hour or so hit just to get there.

[Jeff Smith]

For the New Rochelle end-change, couldn't you just add a Sprinter there to take it in? The Amtrak P32 could then take it back out to SSYD. Good option for the LD's.

As for the Empires, I'm not sure where they've added the MNRR P32's in the past, but it seems Highbridge would work. That is, unless they restrict them to tracks 1 and 2 in the Park Ave tunnel as noted upthread.

Wild idea: could Amtrak build a temporary stop in Manhattan before the Empire tunnel?

[Patrick A.]

Would be tough to find an ideal spot for a temporary station given the ROW's position adjacent to the highway and several sections being below street level. If Amtrak and the MTA were further along in bringing a Penn option online for the Hudson line, could see some more intensive construction taking place, but not for only a 1-2 month need.

[EuroStar]

I am sure the third rail could be reinstalled on one of tracks 1-4 if that would make a difference. In reality it probably does not make a difference, at least not enough to be worth doing.

The Hudson Line access to Penn called for stations somewhere in the vicinity of 59th and 115th street (if I recall correctly). Even if these stations already existed, both represent dropping passengers too far west for easy access to subways. It is unlikely that Amtrak would have gone for that. What stops them from turning the trains at the Yankees-153rd now? Same thing. It will be equivalent of dropping people at a very inconvenient location. On the other side, why are they not even considering that? It avoids the issues with the escape hatches and which train can use which track in the Park Avenue tunnel. There is also the yard in which I am sure Metro-North can find space for Amtrak to do layover of couple of sets.

[JamesRR]

In the scheme of things, moving Empire service to GCT makes the most sense. You sacrifice a service that has another viable option to get into Manhattan, making room for the already-cut NJT, LIRR and additional Amtrak services in Penn.

[ThirdRail7]

You are all getting WAY ahead of yourselves and leaving out relevant details that will help make a plan.

My maps of Penn Station indicate that the Empire Service can access tracks 1 to 8.

Your map is incorrect or you're reading it wrong. You can access 1-9 from the Empire Tunnel. However, let's put two and two together. Let's take this:

Looks like the Empire tunnel will be closed during this first bit o rehab.

and

The second case can occur only if they work on say Ladder U first while ladder M remains in service and the other way around. Trains will first need to go in and then out single file (as opposed to the simultaneous moves available now). In either case the reduction in capacity seems significant enough that Midtown Direct service is guaranteed to go to Hoboken for the duration of the work. <snip>

There are a bunch for switch frogs and wooden ties on one of the tracks in the west throat of the station (that portion is out of service).

It is not the tunnel itself. It is the removal of the switches on the M and U ladder that will hinder movement to the tunnel. As such, they are doing some work in there at the same time. There are NUMEROUS proposals still being hashed including leaving one through route during the weekdays with pull-pull operation with a weekend diversion.

Expanding on EuroStar's assessment, there is a third premise which keeps sailing over everyone head. They are also working on the X's (leads on the west end of the station.) Certain leads can take you to certain tracks. There is an important junction between the 9th Ave and 10th Ave signal bridges that allows access to the higher tracks and lower tracks from the North River tunnels. As Eurostar mentioned, when work begins on those tracks, not only will you lose access to certain station tracks, you will lose the ability to get from one side of the station to the other. In operational terms, if a train enters from the south tube of the North River tunnels, that train will not be able to leave the station in the north tube. It will HAVE to leave in the south tube. The same goes for the north tube. If a train enters from the north tube, it will only be able to access the north tube. If you fill up the station, you will have to wait for things to clear before you can send in more trains, which will result in single tracking in some cases or flip flopping the current of traffic in the tunnels to loosen up the station.

This is compounded by something no one seems to mention. For the last few weeks, they are taking one of the East River tunnels out of service between 10am and roughly 2pm for midday repairs. This reduces capacity heading east and hinders looping trains. This seriously impacts the Empire trains as they would have to "swing" on the east end of the station to access Line 3 so the train can be looped. This is why some of the midday Albany trains were running pull/pull and this is why it may be easier to just run the service to GCT. With leads out, you can't have a train hogging a track for hours.

All of these constraints are being evaluated and they are far from finished. I'm mystified at the level of speculation. My only guess is because it is Penn Station and it is busy. The reality of the situation, is tracks and routes are closed for track work all of the time. Every year, the Crescent is canceled in the early winter Mon-Thu. The Colonial is canceled Mon-Thu every year when they work on the Peninsula Sub. Hell , I haven't see any reference to the Coast Starlight being canceled between WA-CA since April 25th because of a derailment that damaged a bridge on this forum. The early estimate for restoration is the middle of May. That's almost a month without service, and no one bats an eye. There are plenty of options for Penn and they are being explored. Building a temporary train station for the Empire train for a temporary outage shouldn't even be considered. Just as the Coast Starlate passengers are adapting, so will the passengers at Penn.

[JamesRR]

Over at the MN forum, I asked about GCT and how their track has been maintained. Someone brought up a good point - many of GCT's tracks can be accessed by more than one direct route, allowing for flexibility in track maintenance.

The point was also made that NYP was never designed to handle so much traffic from the WEST. So the ladders weren't designed to handle the volume of trains and offer redundant access to tracks.

With all of this replacement of track - is it smarter to redesign the ladders rather than just rebuild them? Is that even possible? Was reconfiguring them going to be a part of Gateway?

[ThirdRail7]

That is part of Gateway. An example is the Empire tunnel will have access to tracks 1-14 when all is said and done. Actually, the plans for that predate Gateway. It involves altering an overhead bridge, so it is a matter of funding and working the NYCDOT. Years ago, you could access LIRR WSY from the lower tracks of NYP. Now you can reach 2 track...for what good it does. As it is, you can reach most places in NYP from the X's. However, the big problem is no matter what occurs, you will ultimately have to cross the plant. It would be great if you could enter the low side of Penn and depart from the High side via some sort of loop. That is not feasible. To fix the West end, you have to improve the east end. One of the components includes the long stalled Sub 4 "bypass" that will allow looping trains to bypass the body of the ever congested SSYD. With the forthcoming of high density signals in the East River tunnels, this help NJT enter the station, depart and loop in a much shorter period of time. This will ease some of the congestion.

At the end of the day, I'm with Nasadowsk:

Nasadowsk wrote:

Maybe it's time NYC, the feds, and everyone else come bite the bullet and do what's pretty obvious at this point: Replace/rebuild Penn Station from the ground up. Redo the track layout for modern patterns, redo the passenger level for modern traffic flows, etc.

Everyone's so hopeful about Gateway, but it just dumps into the existing Penn, which can't handle the human traffic, and barely can handle the train traffic

You can reconfigure the ladders but there are still only 21 tracks in NYP. Four of them stub end on the east of three of them no longer connect to the North River Tunnels. There has been a lot of talk about extending 1-4 or trying to connect them to the East River tunnel but there are too many obstacles. The hope is Gateway will give you more routes west to ease the congestion but my position is the ease of congestion will not appear if you add a ton of trains. You're just creating the same problem but on a larger scale.

[Ridgefielder]

Fresh from the downtown rumor mill. Looks like the Empire tunnel will be closed during this first bit o rehab. There will be 3 trains each way in out GCT crewed by Amtrak T&E. We will need 9 or 10 engineers for this portion. As for the rest of the service it could be out to New Rochelle and a tow into Penn. Amtrak T&E for this also. The bad part is there is no one with current qualifications in the Albany crew base to GCT, however Im sure there are enough who will be more than willing to pick up this section of RR. Figure 6 weeks or so start to finish.



Disclaimer: This info was passed on to me by the union and is nothing but rumor until its in writing which may be as early as tomorrow.

The westbound Lake Shore Limited running south through Woodlawn. Now there's something I never thought I might see!

These would have to be the first scheduled LD moves between MO and New Rochelle since the New Haven was folded into Penn Central.

[Railjunkie]

No, the New Rochelle moves have been done before. I could tell you the LSL had a private dome and who the engineer was but cant remember when.

The only concrete info I can share is there WILL be 3 trains each direction to from GCT. Two morning and one early evening. Job bids for getting qualified CP12 into GCT should go up for bid next week. This is according to the email I got today as it will effect one of my turns.

[Jeff Smith]

I was just musing over totally unrealistic scenarios in the 7 extension thread in the NYC Subway/PATH forum, and it occurred to me there may be an operationally advantageous situation that could help; through running LIRR-NJT. All it would take is an NJT trainset with an ALP-45DP, and run it out to either Woodside and/or Jamaica. Woodside has six tracks; Jamaica is a tangle but huge, and already a well-used cross-platform transfer point.

Woodside is less than 5 miles from Penn, and even less from where the NEC (and catenary) diverges.

Wouldn't you be able to turn an NJT train at either relatively easy? And, provided the Empire Connection tracks are not OOS, couldn't this be a solution for Empire service as well?

Thoughts?

[ExCon90]

There's no interlocking at Woodside; all 6 tracks are straight-railed all the way from HAROLD (wasn't WIN removed years ago and not replaced?) to the western extremities of Jamaica on the Main Line and I'm not sure where on the Port Washington. I haven't been to Jamaica in a while, but I'm wondering--just a thought here--whether the Long Beach and Far Rockaway services could be arranged to permit trains from NJ to arrive on 6 and discharge, then down into the Atlantic Branch far enough to clear, and reverse into 3 to load westbound (and that's assuming you can cross over between Atlantic 1 and 2 east of the platforms). However, it would require Swiss-standard punctuality to avoid bollixing up the rest of the LIRR, and we're not used to that here; certainly the powers that be are not inclined to spend the kind of money that makes Swiss-standard punctuality possible.

[JamesRR]

Interesting idea (NJT has run on Metro-North before, via Penn and the Hellgate line). But is the suggestion that people from NJ would deboard at Woodside/Jamaica and reverse back to the city somehow? I don't think that would be acceptable from commuters as an alternative. Also, moving through Penn Station is still a slow process, and you're adding another river traverse to the ride.

If your suggestion is to deboard at Penn as though it's any other station (like secaucus junction) and have the train continue on, then it isn't much different than the routine now. Many trains deboard and continue on to Queens for layup.