Amtrak Sunset East Reactivation Proposal (Including City of New Orleans Extension)

[mtuandrew]

I'd be fine with temporarily extending the City of New Orleans to Florida, but it isn't a permanent solution to either the Gulf Coast Sunset East problem or the CHI-Florida train problem. Like Tad says, it's currently a one-railroad one-overnight train that works well, and adding a second carrier will probably make timekeeping suffer. I'd rather see a standalone San Antonio (or Fort Worth) - Orlando or New Orleans - Miami train along the coast, both of which would be comfortably over the LD limit of 750 miles, and a Chicago - Florida train that passes through the Appalachians or its foothills.

If I thought they could all work well together, I'd suggest CHI - (CN) - MEM - (BNSF) - BHM - (NS) - JAX - (FEC) - MIA in lieu of CHI - (CSX) - MIA.

[bostontrainguy]

AMTRAK GETTING NEARLY $2-B IN FEDERAL FUNDING:
Amtrak will receive nearly $2-billion in federal funding in FY-2018, including $1.3-billion for the national network and $650-million for the Northeast corridor. The bill also includes funding for other critical passenger rail projects: $593-million for the consolidated rail improvement, which includes $250-million for positive train-control; $250-million for the state of good repair program; and $20-million for the rail restoration program, which will provide support for restoring rail service to the Gulf Coast.

Amtrak will be getting $20 million for "rail restoration". I would think the Sunset Limited (eastern part) is the prime candidate here. Any thoughts on where it might terminate? Jacksonville? Orlando?

Maybe with transition sleepers it could combine with a Silver train in Jacksonville and then run half to Miami on the FEC and half to Tampa?

This could also provide new connecting services between the deep south states and the Atlantic southern states.

Amtrak has had that dotted line on it's maps for a long time, but it never was removed and it was always listed as "suspended".

[CHTT1]

Any restored service on the former Sunset East will be an extension of the City of New Orleans, making a left turn at New Orleans and ending in Orlando. Or it could be a stand-alone train, but it definitely won't be a resurrection of the coast to coast Sunset.

[chrsjrcj]

The Gulf Coast Working Group study estimated the capital costs to restore service to be $118 million. Meanwhile, CSX claims that the actual cost is $2.3 bn.

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/ ... ice--52206" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Considering the route is still considered suspended, I wonder what type of legal action Amtrak can take to reduce the costs that CSX claims (outside of stations and PTC)?

[Backshophoss]

Even with EHH having passed on CSX has played hardball on restoring this route since that Hurricane laid waste to the Gulf Coast Shores,
years ago. Will not be any easier with Mr Foote at the helm.

[bostontrainguy]

Even with EHH having passed on CSX has played hardball on restoring this route since that Hurricane laid waste to the Gulf Coast Shores,
years ago. Will not be any easier with Mr Foote at the helm.

But this IS one of the routes CSX wants to sell off.

[R&DB]

mtuandrew wrote:

If I thought they could all work well together, I'd suggest CHI - (CN) - MEM - (BNSF) - BHM - (NS) - JAX - (FEC) - MIA in lieu of CHI - (CSX) - MIA.

I think a better routing would be via Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga - Atlanta - Jacksonville - Orlando - Miami. More potential traffic. This might also gain some New Orleans to Florida traffic with a change at Atlanta. Basically the old Floridian Route except through Atlanta instead of Birmingham.

[STrRedWolf]

I looked through the above-linked Progressive Rail article, and what struck me was this quote.

For example, current federal regulations require that passenger trains run on schedule at each station at least 80 percent of the time. During the last year of Amtrak's Gulf Coast service, trains ran on time only 7 percent of the time, Dech wrote.

In addition, there are 17 drawbridges along the route where essential maritime traffic gets priority over trains.

So I decided to trace the route and find out what's going on. I went from Orlando (actually, Sanford) to New Orleans, using an old train route guide, Wikimapia, and Google Maps. Some take-aways:

• The route is almost 80% single-track.
• There are only two drawbridges at most between Pensacola and Orlando: on Backwater River in Milton and (possibly) St. Johns River south of Jacksonville.
• Most of the drawbridges are shared among Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana. Ick, what a mess!

I get the feeling CSX has reassigned the slot given to the Sunset East. They repaired the tracks and bridges for functional freight traffic, but in doing saw how much investment was needed to get that 80% on time and got spooked. From my trace, it looks like they need to double-track the route and rebuild a ton of bridges at least to hit that 80% mark. CSX more likely would want to build new track in easier-to-manage areas and rework the bridges to provide the service... and would love not to pay for doing it.

I think a Pensicola to Orlando service would work and be on time ("Gulf Coastal"), maybe Atmore to Orlando. But anything else needs improvement, and I'd have to side more with CSX.

Here's my notes on the trace:

Code: Select all

Orlando
Sanford
Deland
= St Johns River?
Jacksonville
> CSX Honeymoon Wye/Railyard, take branch next to US 90
Lake City
Madison
Tallahassee
Chipley
Crestview
= Blackwater River, Milton (turntable draw bridge)
= Mulatto Bayou
= Escambia Bay
Pensacola
--- FLORDICA/ALIBAMA ---
Atmore
= Tenshaw River?
= Big Lizard Creek
= Big Briar Creek
= Little Briar Creek
= Mobile River !!!
= BigBayou Canot
= Catfish Bayou 
= Bayou Sara !!!
= Chickasaw Creek mouth/St. Louis Beach !!!
= Threemile Creek
Mobile
--- Alabama/MS ---
Pascagoula
= Pascagoula River (TWICE!!!) !!!
= Biloxi Bay !!!
Biloxi
Gulfport
= Bay St. Louis
Bay St. Louis
--- MS/LA --
= Pearl River
= Rigolets (tons of bridges!)
= Chef Menteur Pass
= Almonaster Bridge !!!
NEW ORLEANS Union

[chrsjrcj]

How many trains does CSX run between NOLA and Jax? I remember reading on the Florida based railfans Facebook group a few weeks back that CSX would be re-routing traffic off that line. I think it was unsubstantiated, but not long after that claim, the news of CSX wanting to sell the line came out.

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5 ... t+2015.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looking at the proposed CONO schedule (page 21), it doesn't look like the proposed train would interfere with current Silver Service and the Auto Train. For SunRail, there might be a bit of a bottleneck between Winter Park and the Maitlant SunRail station, but it would only impact the northbound departure (move it up 20 minutes and it might not be an issue). The one meet between the two CONO trains would be between Chipley and Crestview. I think there's one siding between the two stations?

[mtuandrew]

It’d make sense to move the Sunset East north via Birmingham and Atlanta, if CSX is that hellbent on downgrading and selling.

Also, I’d still like to see FEC put in a bid on the entire pair of subdivisions to Pensacola, and take an minority share in the AGR.

[R&DB]

If CSX is looking for a buyer, perhaps they should be talking to Amtrak. Amtrak could then contract out the freight between NOLA & JAX to CSX, a shortline or regional, and possibly make some profit from that. With control, passenger traffic would have priority over freight. No more freight delays! OTP 90%+!
If this NOLA - FL service does get going again, Maybe it could have 2 routes in Florida. Split / combine trains at Gainesville with one going to JAX and the other to Orlando the same way Empire Builder does at Spokane. (gain some collage riders at Gainesville)
The CONO is designed to serve CHI and NOLA. Last I checked neither had anything to do with Florida. ("Penny a point, ain't no one keeping score" - Arlo Guthrie)
If you want passenger service from Chicago to Florida, bring back the Floridian and route it through the south's largest city, Atlanta instead of Birmingham. More direct and much higher potential ridership from Chattanooga, Atlanta and Macon than Birmingham.

[chrsjrcj]

Uh, what route through Gainesville will Amtrak take? There hasn't been a mainline through Gainesville in decades. And the only mainline that comes close to Gainesville, has no connection to Orlando and you have to go to Jacksonville to get to it anyway.

If you really want to see CSX (or NS) kicking and screaming, than starting a new Chicago to Florida route through Atlanta is the way to do it. Amtrak's limited resources are better spent on restoring a route that was supposed to be restored 12 years ago, and where there is already local support for service.

[bostontrainguy]

Yeah, maybe I should have made this a "What Route Should Amtrak Restore" thread?

[R&DB]

chrsjrcj » Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:35 pm.
I guess I should have researched Gainesville before suggesting a route thru there. But I still believe the CoNO should not go to Florida. The Gulf Coast should have it's own route.

[Backshophoss]

Believe a good chunk of this is covered in the Sunset East thread,the "news" of a possible sale of the route might be on hold as Mr Foote is
still trying to calm down the customer base after the rash of service foul ups under EHH's brief tenure.
Any return of service to this route, needs the host RR to reasonable on cost of what truly needed upgrades are.
CSX has been quoting HIGH costs as to keep Amtrak from returning since that storm hit the Gulf coast shoreline,
their legal dept worries of another Bay Canot type wreck(Barge vs Bridge,train wind up in the water) between NOL and the Al/FL state line.

The restart of service might be a push-pull consist from NOL to Biloxi MS (Casinos Resorts) and an extension to Mobile Al some time later.






(Mods: fold into Sunset East thread?)