Amfleet Replacement Discussion.

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

How much different in tilt design are the Cascades' Pendulars from the Talgo trains that used to serve the high level platforms in Grand Central Terminal, New York City?

Talgo? You sure you don't mean the Bombardier LRC? Talgo never had regular-rostered rolling stock in the U.S. before the Pendulars arrived. And I don't think they were ever one of the high-speed "X"-trial experiments on Amtrak.

Nope, the New Haven had a Talgo set (the John Quincy Adams, and the B&M also had one (the Speed Merchant.) I don't believe either of these early Talgo IIs had Pendolino tilting technology - they were just the short single-axle cars.

Ah, OK. I was thinking Amtrak-era and "Talgo = The Spanish Tilt Company". Forgot they were "The Spanish Streamliner Company" during the Generalissimo Franco years.

Their website's "About Us" section also says Amtrak briefly tested something from them Boston-NY back in 1988. Was that non-revenue only, because that trial eludes most of the online write-ups about the various passenger-carrying "X" trials on the NEC from that era?

[NaugyRR]

I remember reading in one of my books on the New Haven's trains that the Dan'l Webster required cheater steps for passengers at Grand Central in order for them to step 'up' onto the high level platforms. I don't know if the John Quincy Adams was the same way.

[DutchRailnut]

the 3 lightweight NH trains used track 11 and 13, at time a low level platform , after yard track 12 was removed, it was later converted to high level but is still at awkward yard level en requires stairs to platform.

[Gilbert B Norman]

Both Dan and John Q had "hatches" and steps to access the hi-level GCT platforms. Likely the only source of any such photos (I'very seen such in the past) is NHRHTA, who is very protective of their material.

Roger had traps and standard height flooring.

[TomNelligan]

Their website's "About Us" section also says Amtrak briefly tested something from them Boston-NY back in 1988. Was that non-revenue only, because that trial eludes most of the online write-ups about the various passenger-carrying "X" trials on the NEC from that era?

Yes, in the spring of 1988 Amtrak tested a six-car Talgo set that was imported from Spain for that purpose. It wasn't around very long and never operated in revenue service, but made a number of test runs on the Shore Line as well as a couple press trips, one of which I was fortunate to ride in connection with a magazine assignment. One odd aspect of the tests was that the Talgo set was propelled by two back-to-back Rohr Turbo power cars that were borrowed from their Empire Service assignment. Around the same time Amtrak was testing the Bombardier LRCs, which of course did operate in revenue service between Boston and New York.

[AgentSkelly]

Talgo in its current product literature mentions it does have the ability to support NEC high level platforms on its newer trainsets...

[ajl1239]

At this point in time, what year do you expect we will begin to see Amfleet replacement carriages?

It's getting ridiculous -- the Amfleets are so old that intercom systems are unreliable, the doors between carriages are frequently stuck open (especially in winter), and the tray tables are so old as to not even work well with laptops (the half-inch dip in them...)

So, just curious what year you think we'll begin to see replacement Amfleet cars for NE Regional service...

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

At this point in time, what year do you expect we will begin to see Amfleet replacement carriages?

It's getting ridiculous -- the Amfleets are so old that intercom systems are unreliable, the doors between carriages are frequently stuck open (especially in winter), and the tray tables are so old as to not even work well with laptops (the half-inch dip in them...)

So, just curious what year you think we'll begin to see replacement Amfleet cars for NE Regional service...

The year Congress is functional enough to pass a transpo bill (not another continuing resolution band-aid, but a real fresh transportation bill) that earmarks funds for a 500+ car purchase.


You may be waiting a couple more sessions at this rate of gridlock, but that's the simplest answer. At least the bi-level corridor order (if it gets back on-track) alleviates the single-level car shortage just well enough that the most ragged-running Amfleets can get a time-out for some overdue shop TLC without exacerbating the shortage. Small comfort for the long term, but for year-to-year fleet management the reinforcements shipped back East will be a meaningful backstop for maintaining acceptable MTBF on the oldest cars.

[ajl1239]

So maybe 2025?

[Matt Johnson]

Do the Amfleets have another 10+ years left in them from a structural point of view? As long as the car bodies are sound, I imagine it's not a problem to keep 'em around.

[Greg Moore]

Given their design and stainless steel construction, I suspect so. But, I've got to imagine that maintenance costs will continue to climb.

It's sorta like the B-52 fleet. They're <wait for it...> bomb-proof... and reliable and dependable, but honestly at some point their maintenance costs and the like are just going to keep climbing. (I think I just read about yet another engine replacement program in the works.)

[R36 Combine Coach]

Given their design and stainless steel construction, I suspect so. But, I've got to imagine that maintenance costs will continue to climb.

VIA's ex-CP long distance Budd stock is expected last another 20-30 years, into their 80s and beyond (built in 1955!).

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

Given their design and stainless steel construction, I suspect so. But, I've got to imagine that maintenance costs will continue to climb.

VIA's ex-CP long distance Budd stock is expected last another 20-30 years, into their 80s and beyond (built in 1955!).

VIA's "HEP1" LD stock isn't a good comparison at all because they don't run anywhere near as punishing a schedule as the Amfleet II's. None of the routes they run on have frequencies of greater than 3 round-trips per week. The cars are 25 years older but have far lower odometer readings; minimum 1 day's downtime between every run for spot maintenance; and more downtime in general for shop visits because their biggest user, the Canadian, shrinks to 2 trains per week in the offseason. They're well taken care of, but a big reason why they're well taken care of is because VIA has long had the luxury (or perennial underfunding curse) of so much downtime between runs. The HEP1's have been carrying a workload far below their capabilities for more than half their service lives, and that's kept their service age well below their chronological age.


If you want a more appropriate VIA Rail comparison go by the "HEP2" Corridor Budds, which are in very worrisome state of wear and have had a red-line-in-sand retirement date declared of no later than 2025 regardless of whether replacement stock is available by that date. That fleet is a hodgepodge of slightly differing Budd makes (including some secondhand ex-AMTK Heritage cars) with far more miles of wear from running multiple schedules per day, fast-escalating maintenance costs, and fast-deteriorating MTBF. They're in more precarious shape than the Amfleet I's.

[gokeefe]

Given their design and stainless steel construction, I suspect so. But, I've got to imagine that maintenance costs will continue to climb.

It's sorta like the B-52 fleet. They're <wait for it...> bomb-proof... and reliable and dependable, but honestly at some point their maintenance costs and the like are just going to keep climbing. (I think I just read about yet another engine replacement program in the works.)

I think at some point there could be some pretty serious questions about metal fatigue similar to what happened with the P42 trucks. However, in all fairness this is where stainless steel really shines through [haha ...]. The trucks are carbon steel (perhaps a strengthened alloy). The Amfleets are stainless construction all the way through.

[Jishnu]

Didn't the P42 truck problems happen due to inappropriate maintenance practices instituted by Amtrak at some point? Once they stopped that the truck fatigue problems went away.