Cardinal discussion

[nickrapak]

I think that Amtrak is definitely looking at the Cardinal (Trains 50 & 51) the wrong way in terms of scheduling. Amtrak still sees it as a (NYP)WAS-CHI train, instead of as a WAS-CIN-IND-CHI one. The main problem with that is that there are other trains to CHI with more sleeper service, lower prices, and better food. I really believe that the trains should leave later and attempt to better serve the other major cities it crosses (Indianapolis, Cincinnati). Right now, 51(WB) arrives at CIN at 1:03 AM, and at IND at 4:44 AM. Train 50(EB) arrives at IND at 11:35 PM, and at CIN at 3:02 AM.
Anyone else have other examples of this type of scheduling which doesn't support the paying customers?

[LI Loco]

In the pre-Amtrak era, Chesapeake & Ohio's principal Washington-Cincinnati train, the George Washington ran on an overnight schedule, arriving in Cincinnati in the morning. Their, passengers transfered to New York Central/Penn Central's James Whitcomb Riley for the run to Chicago, which basically was a daylight schedule from the Queen City to the Windy City; the return trip left in the late afternoon.

This biggest obstacle to the success of such an operation, IMHO, is the eight hours required for the 300-mile trip between Cincinnati and Chicago. It is a loser, and the time zone change adds an extra hour going east. Also, it makes it impossible to have a train with calling times in Chicago that connect with the westbound transcontinental runs and with decent calling times in Cincinnati.

That is why I proposed on another thread that the Cardinal be discontinued between Indianpolis and Huntington, WV, with the Huntington-New York run converted to daily service. Read about it here

[35dtmrs92]

How would I ever be able to take Amtrak to see my folks in beloved (right) Indy? ?

[motor]

Was the Cardinal ever a daily train under AMTK?

This Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_% ... r_train%29 doesn't say, unless I missed something...

motor

[hhswami]

Along with the linked Wikipedia article not answering your schedule question, the "unreferenced" consist section within includes no mention of the Superliner equipment once used. Consequently, 51/52 then had NYP on the schedule, as it stands today.

Seems like everybody's picking on the Cardinal these days, for one reason or another!

[LI Loco]

The Cardinal and its predecessors, the George Washington and James Whitcomb Riley, operated as daily trains until the service was suspended in 1981. When service was restored in 1982, the train coverted to a trie-weekly operation. I believe at the same time its schedule was changed so that it no longer operated between Cincinnati and Washington overnight.

[motor]

Thanks. I saw no place in the Wiki article linked in the initial post that mentioned frequency of the Cardinal, GW, or JWR. Where did you get the frequency info, LI Loco?

Add me to the picker-on-ers of the Cardinal, simply because of its less than daily status. Were the Cardinal daily, it'd mean a one-seat ride for me (or anyone) from WIL to CHI (a trip I hope to take in 2010). Thanks to a less-than-daily Cardinal, the only guarantee of a daily WIL-CHI trip involves, on some days, a two-seat ride (changing to the Capitol at WAS or, if you're adventurous, the Lake Shore at NYP).

motor

[jp1822]

The Cardinal really needs more passenger friendly times at Cincy - while also preserving Indianapolis with passenger friendly times. I still think the Hoosier State may benefit by being a completely separate train.

There's likely significant traffic from Washington DC to Cincy but the schedule at present is horrible. But the train still needs to make its connections to long distance Western long hauls in Chicago. It was amazing looking at earlier Amtrak timetables - Western long hauls used to depart later in the afternoon and evening and still make it to their final destination earlier or at the same time they do presently. Was looking at an early 1990s timetable.

At the same time, I wouldn't want to see the Cardinal broken up into two trains (i.e. Washington DC to Cincy and Cincy to Chicago). I think that's when it was running daily. And at one time the Cardinal split with one section serving the Tidewater region of Virginia and the other serving Washington DC (and the NEC).

I still think of this train as a "southernly train" and support its terminus moved back to Washington DC with Superliner equipment. The current single level train is a fraction of what this train used to be.

[icgsteve]

October, 1981 – More modest Amtrak cuts with some silver linings. Key items:

• Although San Antonio-Laredo service ended, and Chicago-Texas service was cut from daily to tri-weekly, the train’s San Antonio stop was moved from the infamous ‘rabbit patch’ to the station shared with the Sunset Ltd. and through cars were established Chicago-St. Louis-Dallas-San Antonio-Tucson-Phoenix-Los Angeles.
• The Washington-Cumberland-Parkersburg-Cincinnati Shenandoah was replaced with a Washington-Cumberland-Pittsburgh-Chicago Capitol Ltd.
• After a brief interval with no service, the Washington-Charleston WV-Cincinnati-Chicago Cardinal was restored as a tri-weekly rather than daily train, but with through cars extending service to New York City (an extension abandoned in 1996 and restored in October, 2003).

http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/r ... d_history/

By the time Amtrak's takeover of passenger train service on May 1, 1971, the through cars were gone, as was the section that ran to Louisville. Passengers for Chicago had to connect in Cincinnati to the James Whitcomb Riley through Indianapolis.

On July 12, 1971, the George Washington and the James Whitcomb Riley were combined into one train, with through cars available for service from Boston, carrying the George Washington name eastbound only. Within a couple of years, the George Washington name was dropped.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Ge ... Washington

On July 12, 1971, Amtrak combined the James Whitcomb Riley and the George Washington into one train, now operating from Boston and Newport News to Chicago, with the James Whitcomb Riley name only used westbound. The Boston portion of the service was eventually truncated back to Washington, and the train's name became James Whitcomb Riley in both directions.

In 1974, the route through Indiana was switched because of a freight railroad's desire to downgrade their track; instead of Indianapolis, the James Whitcomb Riley now went from Cincinnati to Chicago through Muncie.

With the new October 30, 1977, timetable change, the train was renamed the Cardinal

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Ja ... mb%20Riley

[timz]

It seems during late 1980 or early 1981 the Cardinal was extended, becoming a daily NY-Chicago train.

[NellieBly]

The "Cardinal" was indeed a daily train until 1981, as previously noted. It was very quickly combined with the "James Whitcomb Riley" and became a through NY to Chicago train n 1981. But there's more to the story.

The original Cardinal carried a Newport News section that split off/joined at Charlottesville, just as in C&O days. It carried a dome out of NPN, giving a great view of the climb up Afton Mountain (the schedule in those days was oate afternoon out of WAS, overnight to CIN, then daylight north of there.) I rode the train several times as a student in Chicago, to and from WAS.

Then in 1973 or so, it acquired a Norfolk section styled the "Mountaineer", which split at Russell, KY (not a passenger stop) and carried a dome, diner, and sleepers to Norfolk. So out of CHI you had a train with two diners and two domes! Those were the glory days.

By 1978 the Mountaineer had morphed into the "Hilltopper", from Norfolk to a new station at Catlettsburg, KY. Gone were the domes and sleepers. The NPN section died around the same time, in favor of a NY to NPN train.

And then, of course, there was the "Indiana Tango" of constant re-routes, but that's another story altogether...

[icgsteve]

So out of CHI you had a train with two diners and two domes! Those were the glory days.
...

Fast forward to 2008...a couple of coaches, one deluxe cafe car, and when amtrak can manage it a over-priced sleeper. Plus an added what....nine hours to the run time? hellava job Amtrak.

[timz]

It was very quickly combined with the "James Whitcomb Riley"

As I recall the Riley was renamed the Cardinal in 1977-- no Cardinal until then.

[icgsteve]

As I recall the Riley was renamed the Cardinal in 1977-- no Cardinal until then.

Do you have any knowledge that refutes the info in the post dated Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:15 pm?

[Tom6921]

With Amtrak being tight on Viewliner sleeping cars, and having a small surplus of Superliner sleepers, I have just thought of a way Amtrak could add a little more breathing room on the Viewliner fleet and add sleeping car capacity to the Cardinal.

First of all, I would replace the Viewliner sleeping car with a Superliner sleeping car and a transition car. Of course, the train would have to start in Washington instead of New York, but I'm sure Amtrak could suggest a regional train to connect from. The consist would be as follows: P42-3 Amfleet 2 coaches-Amfleet 2 diner lounge-Superliner transition car-Superliner sleeper.

With Amtrak running at capacity, I'm sure this could work since Chicago and Washington can handle Superliners and Superliners did use to run on the Cardinal.