Hoosier State Discussion (both Amtrak and Iowa Pacific)

[gokeefe]

RPSA has expired. There is a possibility that these provisions may no longer be law.

[mtuandrew]

RPSA has expired. There is a possibility that these provisions may no longer be law.

In which case BNSF or NS could run its own passenger trains again, for their own benefit*, and without interfacing with Amtrak in any way.

*if a railroad makes money off passenger trains, a pig could fly too, I suppose

[John_Perkowski]

As an aside, I think UP has figured out how to make money

1) Run historic power people want to travel behind.

2) Run nice equipment.

3) Treat the customers right.

4) Don’t do this in daily service.

[Tadman]

The issue the LD advocacy community has is with the allocation of the fixed expense that they contend Amtrak allocates a disproportionate amountnof that expense against the LD. As such. Amtrak accunting is "fraudulent".

See, I've heard the opposite. I've heard that Amtrak's billings to states is not transparent and the states have no idea if they're really paying for the X% required by agreement (law?) or if Amtrak is throwing in the kitchen sink. I've had a few Amtrak managers tell me that Michigan is hopping mad over the performance the last few years. Clearly Indiana is not happy.

So back to my position on letting NICTD run the train. If you don't have a big office full of brass in DC, you don't have 10+ running shops and 2-3 heavy shops, you don't have a mausoleum in every major city (that sees 2-20 trains a day), you don't have a yard in every major city, it's a lot harder to fudge the bills because there is nothing to fudge.

I'd advocate Michigan pull out of Amtrak as well. They have a vibrant enough network that they could pull their Chargers and Siemens cars out of the pool and contract someone like Keolis or Serco to run them. If they're so angry, make a move.

[eolesen]

Amtrak's abused their protected status as a government monopoly where the states are concerned.

The time will come when the States to fight back... Maybe not the blue states like CA, IL, or MI, but it wouldn't surprise me to see another state do what IN did and pull the operating contract away from Amtrak.

In addition to IPH, you also have Herzog, Keolis, Transdev... they're all experienced in operating heavy and light rail.

[eolesen]

As an aside, I think UP has figured out how to make money

1) Run historic power people want to travel behind.

2) Run nice equipment.

3) Treat the customers right.

4) Don’t do this in daily service.

With the exception of #4, you just described how UP approaches their Metra operations...

They run historic equipment, not by choice, but they've also learned how to keep it operational and clean (UP maintains the locomotives and cars assigned to their three lines).

They treat customers well, and they run 200 trains a day. There's no reason they couldn't take over the Chicago-St. Louis operation tomorrow (figuratively, of course).

[Tadman]

I think they're also responsible for Ogilvie Station, which is run very efficiently. It reminds me of a European station. It's big and handles a large volume, but doesn't have the feel of a big museum. You walk in, head for your train, and go home. I'm always amazed at big stations like Frankfurt, Amsterdam, and Berlin. There is no "waiting room". There are plenty of restaurants and snack bars. If you need to wait, there are benches all around and a business class lounge.

[jpIllInoIs]

So back to my position on letting NICTD run the train. If you don't have a big office full of brass in DC, you don't have 10+ running shops and 2-3 heavy shops, you don't have a mausoleum in every major city (that sees 2-20 trains a day), you don't have a yard in every major city, it's a lot harder to fudge the bills because there is nothing to fudge.

I'd advocate Michigan pull out of Amtrak as well. They have a vibrant enough network that they could pull their Chargers and Siemens cars out of the pool and contract someone like Keolis or Serco to run them. If they're so angry, make a move.

This is what I believe will occur when the new cars are completed. Once the States (IL MI MO WI) own their own eqpt they can issue RFP's and Amtrak will be forced to drill down their operating costs in a competitive environment.

Tadman- your suggestion that Indiana purchase used Marc eqpt for the HS is intriguing. Since IN is not part of the multi-state eqpt order they would be a good candidate for used eqpt. Doesnt NC use a similar model?

[Arborwayfan]

I wonder how much the existence of PRIAA encourages Amtrak's accountants to make higher estimates of costs on the state-supported trains. If I knew the GAO and a bunch of Amtrak-hating congressmen were going to pick through my accounts to be sure I was not illegally using federal operating dollars to fund an ineligible train, I suspect that whenever I faced a judgment call as to exactly what share of a particular cost was attributable to the ineligible train, I would err on the side of the higher number.

Separate thought: remember that unlike Michigan and Illinois with their state-supported corridors, Indiana has not been paying for the Hoosier State for decades. From Indiana's perspective, Amtrak suddenly started demanding to be paid for the train after running it for years. The predictable reaction to that was part of the debate in Indiana politics when the change happened: officials and legislators who had never thought about passenger rail subsidies except the NICTD were suddenly faced with a few million dollars in charges for continued operation. I know my state is not particularly friendly to public transportation in general, and especially to rail -- there's a law that Indianapolis can't undertake light rail, and one legislator, IIRC, recently proposed to stop Indy from doing any public transportation improvements if there are potholes that need to be fixed, and most of the state is low-density and poorly served even by Greyhound and competitors. I don't like that. But I can't deny that a sudden request for funding for a mediocre train that already existed and used to be all federally funded was a very hard sell. I'm actually kind of surprised we paid as long as we did; it was touch and go back when PRIAA first went into effect. For all the reasons everyone's listed here, Indy-Chicago is not a place where anyone would have been likely to get state support to start up a corridor service, especially a morning northbound-evening southbound one.

[mtuandrew]

Is Indiana still an active participant in the MIdwest HSR Initiative, to the extent that anyone is active? I guess if I were them, I’d want to wait for the big pot of undiluted (non-TIGER) money for that project before committing to passenger service again.

[gokeefe]

The issue the LD advocacy community has is with the allocation of the fixed expense that they contend Amtrak allocates a disproportionate amountnof that expense against the LD. As such. Amtrak accunting is "fraudulent".

See, I've heard the opposite. I've heard that Amtrak's billings to states is not transparent and the states have no idea if they're really paying for the X% required by agreement (law?) or if Amtrak is throwing in the kitchen sink. I've had a few Amtrak managers tell me that Michigan is hopping mad over the performance the last few years. Clearly Indiana is not happy.

So back to my position on letting NICTD run the train. If you don't have a big office full of brass in DC, you don't have 10+ running shops and 2-3 heavy shops, you don't have a mausoleum in every major city (that sees 2-20 trains a day), you don't have a yard in every major city, it's a lot harder to fudge the bills because there is nothing to fudge.

I'd advocate Michigan pull out of Amtrak as well. They have a vibrant enough network that they could pull their Chargers and Siemens cars out of the pool and contract someone like Keolis or Serco to run them. If they're so angry, make a move.

NNEPRA participated extensively in the committee that was tasked with creating the agreed upon formula. Other states did as well. I believe the process was relatively transparent with the fundamental outcome being an acceptable formula but also an acknowledgement by all that Amtrak has exceptionally high costs. Their equipment doesn't come cheap nor does their labor. Pennsylvania got hit with the double whammy of paying for electric locomotives (brand new ones at that).

Amtrak's accountants, and GBN I think you would approve of this, ensured that the formula accounted for depreciation and capital expenses (as required) to the fullest extent allowable.

The good news for Amtrak has been that the state supported services no longer get a "free lunch" on Amtrak's equipment fleet. The resulting cost shift has in most cases made it much easier for states to justify operating their own equipment. Indiana is the rare case where a state faced with rising subsidy requirements has elected to throw in the towel.

With regards to the point mentioned by Mr. Norman about fixed cost allocations I'm guessing they are indeed accurate. Amtrak has hundreds of company owned stations which see literally only "one a day each way" (and a few with even less than that).

Every one of these stations have fixed operating costs with the possible exception of places like Sanderson, TX which is little more than a sign in the gravel ballast.

Whether or not you agree with Indiana choosing to terminate service (I don't but I understand the issues that brought it about) it is very difficult to argue with those who claim that Amtrak's cost structure is exceptionally high.

It is ultimately unsustainable except in the most heavily traveled corridors. And without track improvements it is close to worthless in regional corridors. Indiana didn't want this service and saw to it that it withered on the vine. They appear to have suceeded this time but I doubt this outage is "Adios" forever.

[justalurker66]

Is Indiana still an active participant in the MIdwest HSR Initiative, to the extent that anyone is active? I guess if I were them, I’d want to wait for the big pot of undiluted (non-TIGER) money for that project before committing to passenger service again.

"Midwest Interstate Passenger Rail Commission" http://miprc.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At the last annual meeting in October, Indiana stated that their short term goals for the Hoosier State were to Stabilize OTP by Minimizing delays, Reduce Travel Time and Shorten public schedule with support from Amtrak and CSX and Increase Ridership with targeted marketing. Their long term goals were 2 round trips | 7 day service, Reduce travel time |79 mph speed and Develop conceptual schedule for such service.

A proposed schedule showed 7:30am and 5:30pm westbound departures (arriving in Chicago at 11am and 9pm CT, respectively). The eastbound trips were shown as leaving Chicago at 7:05am and 4:00pm (arriving 12:29pm and 9:24pm, respectively). About 4 1/2 hours of travel time.

Indiana has an Industrial Rail Service Fund (IRSF) of $2.7 Million and Railroad Grade Crossing Fund (RGCF) of $750,000 (2018-19 figures). The big money last year was a minimum $125 Million for "LocalTrax" - a project to complete grade separations. (Elkhart was awarded two overpasses over the NS Chicago line. Gary is receiving one replacing Clark Rd at Pine Junction. There are other sites.)

There is interest in improving passenger rail - but Indiana is putting their money where it is more useful. (NICTD South Shore and West Lake and the grade crossing projects statewide.)

[justalurker66]

Amtrak's accountants ... ensured that the formula accounted for depreciation and capital expenses (as required) to the fullest extent allowable.

And that is where it sounds like Amtrak is sticking it to the states to the fullest extent possible. Any cost that can be billed is apportioned to the states.
For the stations west of Indianapolis I assume the state is allocated 4/7ths of the costs.
For the train set I assume the state is allocated 100% of the cost for the cars and engines seven days per week.
If Amtrak is deadheading the Hoosier State instead of building a train in Chicago for day the Cardinal does not return I assume there is a deadhead fee.

The comparison is Amtrak paying the cost vs what they can bill the state. I expect Amtrak would figure out how to do it cheaper than what they are charging.

When Hoosier State service ends at the end of June the operational costs will go away (less people paid to operate and service the trains). The stations will cost the same to operate ... with 100% of the costs apportioned to the Cardinal. Amtrak will have one more set of cars they can use as spares. Woo hoo.

[njtmnrrbuff]

I was thinking that when the Hoosier State is retired, maybe the State of Ct and MA could let Amtrak bring any Amfleets that were used and add capacity to the Springfield Line shuttles. This Fall, a few shuttles will be extended to Greenfield and Amtrak cannot be running with two car trains, if possible.

[east point]

More trains means more Crews. After the Washington Talgo wreck training more crew may become a very high amount. Just read the NTSB report.