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  • Amtrak Empire Builder 2nd Daily Frequency Chicago - St Paul

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1451268  by Tadman
 
MTU Andrew asked me for a review of the newly refreshed SPUD. I've used it perhaps 3 times in the last two years, every time coming or going to Chicago on 7/8.

Overview: SPUD is a historic depot that was long forgotten, then revitalized when people realized a few things: downtowns matter, suburbo-industrial area depots are not conducive to ridership, and people actually ride trains. It is fairly formulaic for mid-size city grand stations. You once had 50-100 trains/day, now you have 2/day, how does the station remotely support itself. Imagine JFK or O'Hare with 2 flights/day. Nuts.

The answer is to make it a transit hub, with local bus, LD bus, light rail, and Amtrak. And also add some restaurants, office tenants, museum, et al... See Cinci, KC, Denver, Dallas, et al... Like KC, today's passenger waiting area is the concourse above the tracks. At one time, with the load factors of pre-1960, there were enough passengers that the concourse was a wide hallway and passengers waited in the grand hall.

This usually works but when the train is 8 hours late, as it was once eastbound, there is not enough seats. We wound up sitting on the floor. Thanks to the track-a-train map, we didn't sit there for 8 hours, more like 1-2.

The renovation was done quite nicely. The building is in good shape and kept up. But it's kind of boring, because I'm not really into buses, and that's 99pct of traffic. Also, because the light rail has to swing by the capital, it street runs out front, when it could be under the concourse.

Finally, although SPUD is a better location than Midway, it's not great. Saint Paul has something like 10pct of residents in the TC area. Minneapolis is far bigger. I understand the GN station is gone and MILW station is landlocked and one-ended, but a brief stop in Minne would be nice. Uber quotes 35 minutes ride to Minne, light rail quotes 45. This would be similar to the way the Eagle stops at both Dallas and Fort Worth, and the California trains stop at Jack London and Emeryville. That said, I have no idea if the trackage in Minneapolis would support this. How does the train go through town? The North Star station is empty at 1030p, but requires a backing move. More to follow on that comment.
 #1451283  by mtuandrew
 
Ridgefielder wrote:This is something I should know but don't-- what route does the Builder take to access SPUD from the West?
BNSF ex-GN to Midway, Minnesota Commercial ex-Minnesota Transfer to Merriam Park Jct., CP Rail ex-MILW to St. Paul Union Depot.
Rockingham Racer wrote:Would Fridley work as a stop for Minneapolis. It could cause logistical problems for the BNSF, given that it's close to Northtown Yard and has only one platform.
In theory it would, in practice you’re right that the reduced flexibility of a single-track platform makes it obnoxious. Coon Rapids (Riverdale) or Anoka would be better operationally, though farther from Minneapolis.
Last edited by mtuandrew on Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #1451286  by mtuandrew
 
Tasman: thanks for the review! That largely squares with what I remember of the facility. And yes, St. Paul Lowertown is a far cry from Minneapolis’ Warehouse District or Dinkytown in terms of nightlife. If only there was an Amtrak station near Minneapolis (the in-planning Northern Lights Express service is supposed to use the Minneapolis Target Field Station.)
 #1451292  by Gilbert B Norman
 
mtuandrew wrote:BNSF ex-GN to Midway, Minnesota Commercial to Merriam Park Jct., CP Rail to St. Paul Union Depot.
Mr. Stephens. may I modify your captioned statement to read as follows:

"BNSF ex-GN to Midway, Minnesota Commercial to Merriam Park Jct., CP Rail ex-MILW to St. Paul Union Depot."
 #1451295  by mtuandrew
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:
mtuandrew wrote:BNSF ex-GN to Midway, Minnesota Commercial to Merriam Park Jct., CP Rail to St. Paul Union Depot.
Mr. Stephens. may I modify your captioned statement to read as follows:

"BNSF ex-GN to Midway, Minnesota Commercial to Merriam Park Jct., CP Rail ex-MILW to St. Paul Union Depot."
Indeed, Mr. Norman - I wouldn’t want to leave your former employer out of the mix.
 #1451312  by Ridgefielder
 
mtuandrew wrote:
Ridgefielder wrote:This is something I should know but don't-- what route does the Builder take to access SPUD from the West?
BNSF ex-GN to Midway, Minnesota Commercial ex-Minnesota Transfer to Merriam Park Jct., CP Rail ex-MILW to St. Paul Union Depot.
Seems to me that, if you're not going to run into Target Field Station, it would make sense to build a new Minneapolis station somewhere over there on the east bank of the river. On the edge of Dinkytown, say. Or where the GN crosses Hennepin Ave. near the Minneapolis Jct. wye.

That's as close as you're going to get to downtown without a reverse move or a wholesale re-route of the Builder onto the old GN Willmar Division.
 #1451315  by mtuandrew
 
Ridgefielder wrote:Seems to me that, if you're not going to run into Target Field Station, it would make sense to build a new Minneapolis station somewhere over there on the east bank of the river. On the edge of Dinkytown, say. Or where the GN crosses Hennepin Ave. near the Minneapolis Jct. wye.

That's as close as you're going to get to downtown without a reverse move or a wholesale re-route of the Builder onto the old GN Willmar Division.
Makes me wish there was still a little bit of ROW on the West Bank parallel to West River Road, but that ship has sailed.

I suppose if you really, really wanted, after coming west on the BNSF Wayzata Sub to Target Field, you could reroute over the BNSF ex-GN Monticello Sub and the CP MNS Sub, then back across the Mississippi at Camden and loop through Shoreham Yard to go North again. It’d only take an hour and a half to travel a mile :P

Here’s my suggestion, from the Single Ended Station thread:
mtuandrew wrote:Are you thinking about Minneapolis Target Field Station? It would be a solid midpoint station for the Empire Builder, though it’d be more convenient operationally to create a station abutting the University of Minnesota’s TCF Bank Stadium at the end of SE 23rd Ave..
 #1511027  by Jeff Smith
 
https://www.progressiverailroading.com/ ... ice--57776

For discussion of additional Hiawatha service: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=160660
...
The committee did not approve an additional $10 million that was proposed to complete final design and construction of a second daily intercity passenger-rail service between Milwaukee and Minneapolis–Saint Paul, Minneapolis.

Whether the proposed Twin Cities-Milwaukee-Chicago service "stands a chance" will depend on how much resistance Wisconsin Gov. Tony Evers and Democratic lawmakers put up to Republican lawmakers' state budget proposals, Terry Brown of the Wisconsin Association of Railroad Passengers said in a written statement, according to WUWM.

Elected in November 2018, Evers is a Democrat. Republicans control both houses of the Wisconsin Legislature.
 #1532770  by Jeff Smith
 
LacrosseTribune.com: Additional passenger train from St. Paul to Chicago closer to becoming a reality
A second passenger train traveling to and from Saint Paul to Chicago, with stops in Winona and La Crosse, is very nearly a likelihood, but there are still many pieces that need to fall into place.

Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz announced Jan. 10 that $10 million in funding for the Twin Cities-Milwaukee-Chicago Second Train project is included in his 2020 bonding proposal.

The Great River Rail Commission, a group of officials from 18 cities and counties — including Winona and La Crosse — who advocate for additional rail service, said the money would be used in creating an additional service that complements the Amtrak Empire Builder service and runs on existing tracks.

Aside from the cities listed in the project’s name, stops between Saint Paul and Chicago include Red Wing, Winona, Wisconsin cities La Crosse, Tomah, Wisconsin Dells, Portage, Columbus, General Mitchell International Airport in Milwaukee, Sturtevant and Glenview, Illinois.
...
 #1532826  by mtuandrew
 
Tadman wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:39 pm Yes. A few years ago MSP got a commuter train, a smaller operation.
Just one line - Minneapolis to Big Lake. I think they should have done St. Paul to Red Wing either instead of or in addition to that one, the roads are less direct between those two points, but I didn’t have much say!

Looking forward to a second frequency, it could serve a role as a semi-commuter train from Red Wing.
 #1532849  by ryanch
 
Can anyone point to an estimate of total costs to improve the track & configuration and get things running?

[edit - found the answer to my own question]

https://www.wctrib.com/news/4536918-sec ... speed-rail
> The second train could cost anywhere from $136 million to $168 million, Krom said. Minnesota and Wisconsin would be on the hook for the local investment, which could range from 20 percent to 50 percent. Federal grants would pay for the rest.

$10 million in the MN governor's budget does seem like a significant step. I wonder if some Wisconsin legislators would reconsider, knowing that a neighboring state is on board.
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