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  • Why does Amtrak still serve North Philadelphia & Cornwells Heights?

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

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 #1577487  by jonnhrr
 
Seems like a good reason to bring back the Clockers which logically should be run by NJT. If MBTA can run into Rhode Island and SEPTA into Delaware there should be no reason something can't be worked out to have NJT run to 30th St. Then it could service all these intermediate stops and leave Amtrak to concentrate on Trenton, Metropark and Newark, speeding up intercity travel.

Jon
 #1577499  by NortheastTrainMan
 
edbear wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:52 am NJT Atlantic City service already runs in 30th Street, Pennsylvania Station, Philadelphia.
NJT serves 30th Street on the Atlantic City Line, from AC to PHL.
It doesn't do a ton for those who want to commute / travel from PHL to NYP.
 #1577500  by mcgrath618
 
NortheastTrainMan wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:26 pm
edbear wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:52 am NJT Atlantic City service already runs in 30th Street, Pennsylvania Station, Philadelphia.
NJT serves 30th Street on the Atlantic City Line, from AC to PHL.
It doesn't do a ton for those who want to commute / travel from PHL to NYP.
SEPTA runs trains from PHL to TRE. You can pick up NJT there.

Neither the state of PA nor the city of Philadelphia would subsidize NJT running into Philly from Trenton when there are already trains that do so run by SEPTA.

Schedules on SEPTA will even tell you when the next NYP bound NJT train leaves.
 #1577501  by mcgrath618
 
markhb wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:54 pm Stepping down the river from Philly for a moment...
NortheastTrainMan wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:18 am
rcthompson04 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:40 pm I believe North Philadelphia has historically had some New York bound commuters connecting via the Chestnut Hill West line. Cornwells Heights is more interesting to me. Did a PRR train to New York stop in that area previously? It also strikes me as interesting the Newark Delaware and Downingtown PA are served by Amtrak trains. When Coatesville is upgraded I wonder if it makes sense to drop Downingtown especially if the station is moved further east closer to Exton.
I know Newark, DE is pretty lightly served. It looks routinely desolate. Not spooky like North Philly imo, but still quite desolate. I’ve seen videos of Downingtown but I haven’t rode a train on the Keystone Corridor yet.
I've recently looked into NRK because of knowing a young person who is considering UDelaware, and given that large college campus right next door I'm surprised that it gets so little service from Amtrak or SEPTA.

(I also looked at the Google Streetview for the North Philadelphia station and... yeah, I get it.)

North Philadelphia Station isn’t the worst. Nearby North Broad on SEPTA certainly has a worse atmosphere. There are several proposals to redevelop the parking lots and factories surrounding PHN with offices and apartments. Considering its location, and that the Philadelphia real estate market is incredibly hot, it might work.
 #1577502  by NortheastTrainMan
 
jonnhrr wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:42 am Seems like a good reason to bring back the Clockers which logically should be run by NJT. If MBTA can run into Rhode Island and SEPTA into Delaware there should be no reason something can't be worked out to have NJT run to 30th St. Then it could service all these intermediate stops and leave Amtrak to concentrate on Trenton, Metropark and Newark, speeding up intercity travel.

Jon
I think this was brought up back around 2005 when NJT "took over" the Clocker service from Amtrak.
I used the quotations because NJT never actually ran PHL to NYP. At best a number of ALP-46 locomotives were used to power a few Amtrak Clockers, but those were Amtrak trains not NJT trains.

Correct me if I'm wrong but here were a few issues why NJT didn't run PHL - NYP:
- Politics, NJT was given a tough time building a train yard in Morrisville, PA which is a mere 2 miles away from Trenton. Imagine running into PHL.

- Lack of demand. In my experience SEPTA's Trenton line trains are typically 2-5 cars, with the exception of a handful of 6-7 car trains during peak times Mon-Fri. NJT's NEC Line trains are typically 8-10 cars, with some 12 car Arrow 3 sets. As convenient & cost effective it would be to take NJT commuter rail PHL to NYP, the stretch from TRE to PHL might not be financially worth it. Even when I took NJT from NYP to TRE to transfer to SEPTA, almost everyone got off at Trenton. Barely anyone got on SEPTA to PHL.

You made good points that I agree with, but the powers that be don't see it like we do unfortunately.
 #1577505  by NortheastTrainMan
 
mcgrath618 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:37 pm
markhb wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:54 pm Stepping down the river from Philly for a moment...
NortheastTrainMan wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:18 am
rcthompson04 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:40 pm I believe North Philadelphia has historically had some New York bound commuters connecting via the Chestnut Hill West line. Cornwells Heights is more interesting to me. Did a PRR train to New York stop in that area previously? It also strikes me as interesting the Newark Delaware and Downingtown PA are served by Amtrak trains. When Coatesville is upgraded I wonder if it makes sense to drop Downingtown especially if the station is moved further east closer to Exton.
I know Newark, DE is pretty lightly served. It looks routinely desolate. Not spooky like North Philly imo, but still quite desolate. I’ve seen videos of Downingtown but I haven’t rode a train on the Keystone Corridor yet.
I've recently looked into NRK because of knowing a young person who is considering UDelaware, and given that large college campus right next door I'm surprised that it gets so little service from Amtrak or SEPTA.

(I also looked at the Google Streetview for the North Philadelphia station and... yeah, I get it.)

North Philadelphia Station isn’t the worst. Nearby North Broad on SEPTA certainly has a worse atmosphere. There are several proposals to redevelop the parking lots and factories surrounding PHN with offices and apartments. Considering its location, and that the Philadelphia real estate market is incredibly hot, it might work.
You do realize that the North Broad Reading station is literally down the street right? Maybe 2 blocks away at best, it's in the same neighborhood. Broad & Lehigh (North Broad) and Broad & Glenoden (PHN) are a stones throw away from eachother. Similar distance between NYP and Herald Square. Now it might not be Kensington & Allegheny levels of dangerous but it's still not an ideal location for intercity rail traffic at the moment.

I mentioned in my original post that I read articles on the potential rehabilitation / revitalization of that area, but it's not there yet. Maybe 5 - 10 years from now it will be, who knows. But it's not there yet. Philly put gigantic poles in the middle of North Broad so maybe that's a start in some direction?
Last edited by NortheastTrainMan on Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #1577508  by NortheastTrainMan
 
mcgrath618 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:35 pm
NortheastTrainMan wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:26 pm
edbear wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:52 am NJT Atlantic City service already runs in 30th Street, Pennsylvania Station, Philadelphia.
NJT serves 30th Street on the Atlantic City Line, from AC to PHL.
It doesn't do a ton for those who want to commute / travel from PHL to NYP.
SEPTA runs trains from PHL to TRE. You can pick up NJT there.

Neither the state of PA nor the city of Philadelphia would subsidize NJT running into Philly from Trenton when there are already trains that do so run by SEPTA.

Schedules on SEPTA will even tell you when the next NYP bound NJT train leaves.
I know that you can take NJT's ACL into 30th Street, then SEPTA to TRE and finally NJT (again) to NYP. But most in this thread are referring to NEC travel between NYP and PHL, not branches / lines that access the NEC. That's why I said the ACL isn't helpful in regards to this thread. I've taken the NJT & SEPTA trains from PHL to NYP a number of times and grew quite familiar with the schedules and transfers at Trenton. :-D
 #1577548  by ExCon90
 
NortheastTrainMan wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:38 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but here were a few issues why NJT didn't run PHL - NYP:
- Politics, NJT was given a tough time building a train yard in Morrisville, PA which is a mere 2 miles away from Trenton. Imagine running into PHL.

- Lack of demand. In my experience SEPTA's Trenton line trains are typically 2-5 cars, with the exception of a handful of 6-7 car trains during peak times Mon-Fri. NJT's NEC Line trains are typically 8-10 cars, with some 12 car Arrow 3 sets. As convenient & cost effective it would be to take NJT commuter rail PHL to NYP, the stretch from TRE to PHL might not be financially worth it. Even when I took NJT from NYP to TRE to transfer to SEPTA, almost everyone got off at Trenton.
Similar to the point raised in the Lackawanna Cutoff thread: it's difficult to imagine New Jersey subsidizing passengers from Pennsylvania traveling through New Jersey to spend money (and earn money -- and pay wage taxes) in New York. As to the comment above about the difference in loadings east and west of Trenton, I often rode an evening clocker from New York to Philadelphia -- the rear half got off the train at Princeton Jct. and the front half at Trenton; the rest of the trip to Philadelphia was practically an equipment move with a few passengers.
 #1577796  by cle
 
The one-seat ride to Philly is the thing. Airlines have competition on the same routes - why can't NJT run to Philly and undercut both Amtrak but also the Chinatown buses and of course, driving? It's defeatist and not apples/apples.

The NY-Philly city to city demand might enable the 8-10 car services to remain. Maybe not 12, but why not. The SEPTA Trenton service is not a serious option for mass movement to NYP. It's a Philly commuter line. And frankly, Philly-Trenton would be better served non-stop on NJT. Good point on Mainline commuting to Princeton.

New Haven is the example here. Yes Amtrak service it, but most people from NYC choose to save $$$ and add on 10-15 mins, and take Metro North. The inter-state politics stuff we just need to get better at, but if we don't try - we can't ever improve things. It's a lazy, pathetic reason to write off new ideas.

As for Princeton Junction, I don't see why it can't have the same amount of calls as Metropark. Ridership is roughly equal, and this is with Hamilton having been built and boomed. It's definitely a more in-demand region and destination in total, being more than a park & ride and office park - but that too. Metropark's footprint is being converted into residential because it is underutilized.
 #1577814  by R36 Combine Coach
 
cle wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:27 pm As for Princeton Junction, I don't see why it can't have the same amount of calls as Metropark.
Ridership is roughly equal, and this is with Hamilton having been built and boomed.
On a related note, the 1998 NJT system map has Hamilton (under construction) as an Amtrak station.
 #1577938  by andrewjw
 
R36 Combine Coach wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:23 pm
cle wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:27 pm As for Princeton Junction, I don't see why it can't have the same amount of calls as Metropark.
Ridership is roughly equal, and this is with Hamilton having been built and boomed.
On a related note, the 1998 NJT system map has Hamilton (under construction) as an Amtrak station.
Does it also show Hoboken as interchange with Amtrak? Something is up with that.
 #1577959  by Ken W2KB
 
andrewjw wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:15 am
R36 Combine Coach wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:23 pm
cle wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:27 pm As for Princeton Junction, I don't see why it can't have the same amount of calls as Metropark.
Ridership is roughly equal, and this is with Hamilton having been built and boomed.
On a related note, the 1998 NJT system map has Hamilton (under construction) as an Amtrak station.
Does it also show Hoboken as interchange with Amtrak? Something is up with that.
Local PATH train from Hoboken to NY Penn for Amtrak?
 #1578065  by Cbattz
 
As someone who makes the NYC-PHL trip at least twice a month (sometimes over 6x) I'm curious to what capacity, if at all, Septa was involved with the restructuring of services to replace the Clocker in '05? It seems like adding 1 or 2 reverse-commute express trains that allow cross platform transfers with NJT Super Expresses would be a no brainer? The few times I've had to make a very early morning trip from Philly to new York, i was able to do so in about 2 hours riding the one reverse commute express to Trenton. Given how expensive last-minute morning rush Amtrak tickets can get, it was a very agreeable alternative!