PSR and Amtrak

[Arborwayfan]

What's "street caring"? Checking tickets before letting people on?

It frustrates me, too, but sometimes there's a useful part to it. I have seen conductors on the Illini at Effingham identify the groups and point them towards seats they've found for them, which is pretty helpful for a family of four boarding a fairly full train, or even for a single passenger in the same situation. Sell reserved seats already. Also, maybe investigate if conductors are given too much trouble from above if an unticketed passenger boards and is discovered after the train departs, and then is unable to pay for a ticket by credit card: does Amtrak blame the conductor? Is there a lot of paperwork?

[Gilbert B Norman]

Prof Martens, I first heard the term "streetcaring" on the IC. It simply was SOP at Champaign for any student populated train, such as The Creole (NB 4P departure). Did it delay trains? Of course it did. Did it "protect revenue"? By and large yes; the "farebeating contingent" had to resort to stunts like hiding someone, such as a small lithe girl, in an oversized suitcase.

Oh well, wonder why I always had a few less suds at Kam's to be able to ride Parlor Car on the Panama, where such nonsense didn't occur.

[JimBoylan]

Hearsay in other posts claims that Precision Scheduled Railroading does not always mean the same time every day. One road allegedly scheduled their trains 28 hours apart, so that the times would be the same 7 days later. This may have been a way to upset the crews circadian sleep cycles, now that they would know in advance when they could be called to work.

[David Benton]

Hearsay in other posts claims that Precision Scheduled Railroading does not always mean the same time every day. One road allegedly scheduled their trains 28 hours apart, so that the times would be the same 7 days later. This may have been a way to upset the crews circadian sleep cycles, now that they would know in advance when they could be called to work.

Here , they milk some cows on a 16 hour cycle. It was previously thought cows would get very upset if not miled the same time each day. However it seems the interval is what s important , so maybe the 28 hour day is not so bad.

[mtuandrew]

I believe that was CSX, and it was factual. Not sure if it is still factual, or if they’re adjusted back to a 24ish hour cycle.

Regardless, that would play havoc with a daily train scheduled at the same time in a 24 hr cycle - as Amtrak is.

[STrRedWolf]

Here , they milk some cows on a 16 hour cycle. It was previously thought cows would get very upset if not miled the same time each day. However it seems the interval is what s important , so maybe the 28 hour day is not so bad.

The counterpoint to this is that every cow has their own interval. I heard that if you allow cows to groom and milk themselves (via automated systems) they are much happier, and therefore produce more milk overall, since you're now "just in time milking".

Back to trains... now that I think of it, PSR isn't "just in time pickups". We had JIT trains before it switched over. We now have a system where one large train "polls" along the line and picks up cars if they're ready. "Precision Scheduled Railroad" is just really applying a transit schedule to freight... and given that (most) freight isn't live... it kinda works.

Kinda.

It just doesn't work if that "freight" is really passengers. That's UPS levels of variable juggling, and even UPS don't get it right all the time.

Cute anecdote: I had a delivery coming in via UPS, some tech equipment needed. The truck was in my neighborhood around 9am... and kept going by my house about... twenty times, but just not able to make a right, go down, make two rights, come up my street, stop, drop my packages off, go, make another right, take a hit on a left (but it's a residential neighborhood so the hit's only like 5 seconds) , make another right back on the major state route, and continue on. That's a bug in their routing software!

Yeah, I'd reform PSR to tiered services -- Polled/Scheduled, Express, Dedicated, and Passenger. Guess where Amtrak fits in?

[bratkinson]

One road allegedly scheduled their trains 28 hours apart, so that the times would be the same 7 days later. This may have been a way to upset the crews circadian sleep cycles, now that they would know in advance when they could be called to work.

I believe that was CSX, and it was factual. Not sure if it is still factual, or if they’re adjusted back to a 24ish hour cycle.

Regardless, that would play havoc with a daily train scheduled at the same time in a 24 hr cycle - as Amtrak is.

Yes, that was CSX. I forget which VP came up with the 28 hour cycle. The thinking was it would save a train per week per 'original' schedule. ie, 3-4 locomotives, 3-4 crews, fuel, etc. I suspect that problems such as a customer that used to have their loads(or empties) spotted by 10AM every week day now get them at 10, 2, 6, and not at all depending on which day it was. Did the local switchers stay on their normal schedules and if so, if they were supposed to get out of the yard about 9AM after a manifest freight dropped cars there at 6AM, the next day, either they didn't take the customers loads at all, or the local left the yard 4 hours later. Fortunately, they didn't screw with intermodal schedules. But I'd bet that they considered it and if they called UPS with the proposal, I'm sure 'breach of contract' was angrily mentioned more than once during that conversation.

I wondered if the same crews would be forced to 28 hour circadian rhythm screwing up or a crew would work whatever the next train available back home once their rest period was done. As one that worked relief as well as extra board as a CSX Intermodal 'service representative' (clerk), irregular work schedules made for one worker tired 'most of the time' at work.

Fortunately, I think one of the very first things EHH did upon arrival in Jacksonville was put an end to the 28 hour schedule games as it was in direct contradiction to 'same trains, same schedules, 7 days/week' of PSR 101.

[justalurker66]

"When passengers book from intermediate stations, they get a three-hour window (e.g. 12 noon +/- 1h30m)."

The further one gets from origin the more Amtrak's current (pre-COVID) performance seems to follow that type of scheduling. A schedule could be published based on best running times to the intermediate stations and say the trains would serve those stations "no earlier than" the published time. If the train arrives early it is held for schedule. If it is consistently early the schedule gets changed. If it is consistently late the schedule may or may not get changed. The schedule can be reset at major stations (preferably places where the Amtrak can get off the main line or stop at a platform that doesn't block traffic).

I would not write a schedule as "plus or minus" but we have one that is written based on "no earlier than" ... and people can check the train tracker to see if their train will be on time or delayed.

As far as PSR goes ... we have seen what happens when railroads forget Amtrak when they set their PSR schedule. Put a long freight drag out of a yard on the schedule for a few minutes before a scheduled Amtrak passes and spike the Amtrak every night. The railroad gets to show that their freight departed as scheduled. Logic might say hold the freight five minutes and less the Amtrak pass. Or Amtrak could bump up their schedule. Some days I am amazed at how smoothly the trains run.

[bratkinson]

"When passengers book from intermediate stations, they get a three-hour window (e.g. 12 noon +/- 1h30m)."

The further one gets from origin the more Amtrak's current (pre-COVID) performance seems to follow that type of scheduling. A schedule could be published based on best running times to the intermediate stations and say the trains would serve those stations "no earlier than" the published time. If the train arrives early it is held for schedule. If it is consistently early the schedule gets changed. If it is consistently late the schedule may or may not get changed. The schedule can be reset at major stations (preferably places where the Amtrak can get off the main line or stop at a platform that doesn't block traffic).

I would not write a schedule as "plus or minus" but we have one that is written based on "no earlier than" ... and people can check the train tracker to see if their train will be on time or delayed.

I recall a Trains Magazine article maybe 10 years ago that discussed the 'ins and outs' of Amtrak scheduling. Among the biggest 'takeaways' for me were that schedules have to be agreed to by the host railroads including smoke stops and where and how much padding is to be inserted. There's multiple padding times/locations in every LD route. Most notable among them is 20-30 minutes between the next-to-last station and the final endpoint of the train. Look at the scheduled time difference in minutes between initial station departure and 1st stop. Compare that with the arrival times after 1 or 2 days journey between the same two stations.

I think it was another Trains article 25-30 years ago about Amtrak scheduling discussed schedules the first few years of Amtrak where every schedule assumed they would lure more passengers with fast schedules to compete with airlines and buses. Unfortunately, in the early days, on time performance to the fast schedules was exceedingly poor. The result was lost passengers. And THAT was in the first 25 years of Amtrak where, by agreement at the start of Amtrak in '71 that all Amtrak trains would receive priority over all other trains on each host railroad! (That expired in '96) So somewhere about 1975 (I'm guessing) they lengthened the schedules inserting padding as needed to make more trains run on time. Passengers would much rather have on-time trains than 'fast' trains that are never on time.

I think it was about a year ago <somewhere> I read that new Federal rules (NTSB?) that scheduled intermediate stop times be more accurate with reality necessitating that schedule and padding times/locations be renegotiated with each host railroad.

Lastly, it's only railroaders and railfans that understand why a train may sit in an intermediate station longer than it takes to get passengers off and new ones boarded. Even knowing that, I find 'waiting time' quite frustrating. I have little doubt it is confusing to some passengers and pissing others off!

[NY&LB]

WRT "Waiting time", that is why commuter schedules FROM "The City", for NJ Transit at least, have a footnote that says
"Trains may leave ahead of schedule". This serves to get the "Dashing Dans" (A LIRR term) home a few minutes early.

[justalurker66]

The NICTD South Shore has a schedule note affecting their eastbound (outbound from Chicago) trains allowing them to depart up to four minutes early. They have found that they better serve the majority of their passengers by letting the train roll after each station stop is completed instead of holding for the departure time. Even if they occasionally miss an eastbound passenger that shows up "on time" but after the train departs early.

For "all reserved" trains I don't see why the trains hold for schedule unless a boarding passenger is not accounted for. Theoretically a passenger could book a seat minutes before the train departs - so perhaps a ticket sale cutoff would need to be put in place if trains no longer held for schedule.

[ctclark1]

Back to trains... now that I think of it, PSR isn't "just in time pickups". We had JIT trains before it switched over. We now have a system where one large train "polls" along the line and picks up cars if they're ready. "Precision Scheduled Railroad" is just really applying a transit schedule to freight... and given that (most) freight isn't live... it kinda works.

Kinda.

So in a way, PSR is reversing the "every train is an extra" (that is to say, unscheduled) situation railroads found themselves in when they started getting away from freight timetables? Kinda?

[David Benton]

I think what counts more for passengers is dependability. I think almost as many people would be upset by an early train as by a late train . Imagine if somebody is picking you up, what to you tell them you might be 15 minutes early, be there 15 minutes before train time . Most stations arent the most pleasant place to wait.