Railroad Forums 

  • Provocative Railway Age Article 9/10/20: "Private Sector Investment in NEC Operations?"

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1552871  by mtuandrew
 
conductorchris wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:58 am A lot of these ideas for new stops represent a philosophy of making the train station more local to population (ie, the 100,000 or so people in Alexandria) or employment/business destinations (ie, Amazon in Crystal City). This stands in contrast to Amtrak's approach of letting a station serve a region with people traveling some distance (by car, generally) to get to the station.

So far as I know, there is no real data on the ridership value of a more local approach. Amtrak says it costs $75 per stop (that's each time a train stops, not the cost over a year) in terms of extra fuel use and crewtime. Not sure if they include revenue NOT earned due to slower train time or the cost of assets sitting at the train station. Obviously that means a train stop needs to at least earn the cost of it's impact, but that isn't hard. The harder question is if the train station brings NEW riders or just DISPLACES riders from nearby stops. I tend to think Amtrak has got it wrong and these guys have it right, but we're just playing theoretical games given the lack of hard data.

Christopher
It makes sense to terminate in the City of Alexandria I suppose, both it and Arlington County are well-heeled and populous. But these guys are making some assumptions that may not be borne out for some time:
a) electrification into Virginia
b) second Long Bridge
c) Crystal City/Reagan National Airport Station
d) high platforms at Alexandria Union Station
e) availability of a maintenance facility in the west end of Alexandria (likely NS Van Dorn Yard or nearby)
f) new equipment, whether these guys buy it or a government organization does

To e), new equipment wouldn’t need as much maintenance, and most railcars today come with guaranteed manufacturer support for major issues. For the remaining storage & maintenance needs, Alexandria’s city council would be very happy to have this asphalt plant and gravel/construction recycling site replaced by something “cleaner.”

As to your $75 per stop point, to profitably add a stop Amtrak needs to add $76 worth of revenue from either new passengers (people who would ride Amtrak from ARL who would skip Amtrak if they had to go to ALX or WAS) or from the marginal revenue of people riding just a little further from ARL at a higher ticket price. That second one is unlikely. To the first, it’s possible people would transfer from airlines if they could just walk to the railroad, it would be a boon to BWI <-> DCA transfers. Any local would just drive to one or the other station though - they aren’t going to get out of their cars or off a plane because Amtrak is a mile closer.

But Amtrak isn’t just about profit, it’s also about efficiency and equity. Once Virginia Railway Express builds a new facility to replace its existing Crystal City stop (which is wholly inadequate for intercity use and barely adequate for the current commuter service), Amtrak would do well to add it permanently. I think DC2RVA envisions this happening.
 #1552874  by west point
 
There were hints at pne time that extending the CAT thru the first street tunnel would limit overhead clearances that would preclude Superliner cars? Auto train Superliner cars are often ferried thru the tunnel for maintenance and sometimes the Cardinal has SL cars on its consist. That may be why the Union station throat does not have extended CAT to allow more cars to be on front of Palmetto ? ( 2 is limit )
 #1552879  by mtuandrew
 
west point wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:32 am There were hints at pne time that extending the CAT thru the first street tunnel would limit overhead clearances that would preclude Superliner cars? Auto train Superliner cars are often ferried thru the tunnel for maintenance and sometimes the Cardinal has SL cars on its consist. That may be why the Union station throat does not have extended CAT to allow more cars to be on front of Palmetto ? ( 2 is limit )
More than hints - it’s only 17’ high, which would be fine for 14’ 6” equipment but is very tight for a 16’ 2” Superliner. You’d have to deenergize whenever you transferred cars (or take the long way around through Benning Yard) and still hope you didn’t bump the wire, and it would disallow VRE’s gallery cars permanently. Not sure you could even undercut or raise the tunnel, what with Metro underneath and Cannon House Office Building above. Maybe you could notch the sides and install embedded rail in slabs (see this 550kb PDF for details) and gain another foot of clearance.
 #1552883  by Gilbert B Norman
 
How does this guy get so much"ink" in the industry's trade publication?

No Class I "welcomes" Amtrak on their rails; they simply have become Kubler-Ross Phase V regarding it:

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/in ... e-demands/
 #1552896  by west point
 
Andrew: Thanks for the confirmation. Those clearances certainly put the idea of electrification to ALX on a back burner. So unless the proposed second 1st avenue tunnel is ever built there cannot be any way to extend CAT to ALX and eventually Richmond. Would expect that it will be 25 Hz until somewhere south of the tunnel and voltage at 25 Kv 60 Hz on beyond. Certainly not in service in the rest of my life. Lead it to you youngsters to pursue this dream.

It may be that if the second tunnel is ever built then the present tunnel can be rebuilt for higher clearances ? Suspect with it out of service rebuilding might not take more than 6 months.
 #1552899  by electricron
 
Why are some proposing electrification into Virginia south of DC Union Station?
Amtrak runs many trains south of DC, but most head into different directions. There are trains heading south on NS tracks, and south on CSX tracks. Assuming that the first priority is to Richmond, where will Amtrak swap electric to diesel locomotives in Richmond? Does Amtrak have maintenance facilities in Richmond to take great care of these locomotives? I would like to point out that Amtrak has these facilities in DC.
 #1552932  by KTHW
 
Virginia is planning on building a facility just south of Richmond VA near Manchester to service and turn future trains running through RVM as part of the deal with CSX. The other clearance issue that I suspect no one is considering is the new WMATA pedestrian bridge over the CSX tracks that will create access to PY Station. I’m assuming it’s high enough for double stack traffic, but I’ve never seen what the exact height is.
 #1552940  by STrRedWolf
 
mtuandrew wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:09 am As to your $75 per stop point, to profitably add a stop Amtrak needs to add $76 worth of revenue from either new passengers (people who would ride Amtrak from ARL who would skip Amtrak if they had to go to ALX or WAS) or from the marginal revenue of people riding just a little further from ARL at a higher ticket price. That second one is unlikely. To the first, it’s possible people would transfer from airlines if they could just walk to the railroad, it would be a boon to BWI <-> DCA transfers. Any local would just drive to one or the other station though - they aren’t going to get out of their cars or off a plane because Amtrak is a mile closer.
There's even a few problems with the first bit.
  • Amtrak BWI to ALX is $26, and you have to back-track. MARC BWI to WAS is $7. WMATA WAS to DCA is $2.45 off-peak. Guess what most of the airport-to-airport traffic is taking.
  • Crystal City VRE is "Close" but you got all the track plus the GW Parkway and the WMATA Metrorail line to contend with. Even given a rebuild of the station to accommodate two trains at once, you'll have to do bus service between the station, the WMATA stations, and the airport... wait, where have I heard that before... oh right, BWI, with it's own bus shuttle between Amtrak BWI and the terminals (where terminal E covers the MTA Maryland Light Rail station)!
  • It'll be more likely to extend MARC down to do BWI to ALX, hitting Crystal City and other VRE spots, than to have Amtrak stop at Crystal City. If that happened, it'll be at least $1-$2 more than the BWI to WAS fare. Still cheaper.
 #1552943  by mtuandrew
 
To STrRedWolf’s point, here is the Crystal City Business Improvement District’s proposal list for pedestrian walkways between the proposed new Crystal City Station location and DCA: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... _small.pdf
 #1552949  by Literalman
 
"Once Virginia Railway Express builds a new facility to replace its existing Crystal City stop"

"Crystal City VRE is 'Close' but you got all the track plus the GW Parkway and the WMATA Metrorail line to contend with"

Actually the current Crystal City station is a 10-minute walk from the National Airport terminal. I've done it often enough. There's a pedestrian underpass at the Water Park adjacent to the station. The underpass is part of the Crystal City Connector Trail of the Mount Vernon Trail, which has a bridge over the parkway. You still have to cross a highway ramp and a parking lot.

A few years ago, when VRE held a presentation about its plan for a new station at Crystal City, I asked about making the pedestrian connection to the airport safe and easy. VRE's answer was that it would be somebody else's problem. A bus isn't needed. From the VRE Crystal City station you can walk to the Metro Crystal City station, or you can transfer to Metro at the King Street, Alexandria, station. Metro takes you to the front door of the airport.

If a new Crystal City VRE station is built, or at least a second platform (VRE said it was planning a whole new station with a bridge over the tracks and not going to use the trail underpass to connect the platforms), it might be useful to Amtrak passengers to the airport if the pedestrian connection were fixed. I don't like cutting across the highway ramp but it's tolerable. It shouldn't be necessary.
 #1552955  by STrRedWolf
 
Literalman wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:14 pm Actually the current Crystal City station is a 10-minute walk from the National Airport terminal. I've done it often enough. There's a pedestrian underpass at the Water Park adjacent to the station. The underpass is part of the Crystal City Connector Trail of the Mount Vernon Trail, which has a bridge over the parkway. You still have to cross a highway ramp and a parking lot.
...
If a new Crystal City VRE station is built, or at least a second platform (VRE said it was planning a whole new station with a bridge over the tracks and not going to use the trail underpass to connect the platforms), it might be useful to Amtrak passengers to the airport if the pedestrian connection were fixed. I don't like cutting across the highway ramp but it's tolerable. It shouldn't be necessary.
I can definitely see a bridge or tunnel to bypass the traffic and come up on the station itself -- a tunnel probably will be better as you avoid issues with CSX running double-stacks and possible runs of catenary. A moving sidewalk will speed things along as well.

But as I said, I doubt Amtrak will stop at it. MARC is more likely on select ALX to MSA (Martin State Airport) run throughs.
 #1553018  by BandA
 
[the Boston area portion of the article] Thanks Rockingham Racer for correkting me; routing via Ayer instead of the Grand Junction would also miss the existing Woburn/Anderson station. You'd probably replace it with a Lowell stop.

Backtracking into Boston to pick up Woburn (pronounced something like Woo-Burn) and BON is ~~50 miles longer than going by the Grand Junction. Not a good option.

The proposed MIT/Cambridge station would be on the Grand Junction presumably near Kendall Square right next to a grade crossing. An excellent location for a station with little room to build one. Some of the NIMBYs could be peeled off by the allure of a one-seat ride to NYP or LL Bean.
 #1553024  by Gilbert B Norman
 
I noted this thought over at the Downeaster topic as well, but this is an OPINION piece by an advocate that for some reason I know not, Railway Age is willing to "give him ink".

He has written other passenger train advocacy pieces that RA has chosen to print.

Railway Age is the industry's trade magazine, and as such is supposed to present the industry position on affairs affecting such. It should be evident that any passenger train operation over the Class I roads that does not pay its full opportunity cost is simply not in the industry's interests.

As more of the industry becomes disciples of "Saint Ewing", passenger trains will represent greater interference than they do today - and definitely more, much more, than they did on A-Day.

This author ought to ring up Mike Schafer or our Otto to see if his material could be included in Passenger Train Journal or Railfan and Railroad.
 #1553046  by R36 Combine Coach
 
The name David Alan sounds familiar. Seems he might be active in North Jersey on the M&E/Lackawanna
Coalition (an NJT lobbying group focused on the M&E lines and Northwestern NJ rail).
BandA wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:53 pm The proposed MIT/Cambridge station would be on the Grand Junction presumably near Kendall Square right next to a grade crossing. An excellent location for a station with little room to build one. Some of the NIMBYs could be peeled off by the allure of a one-seat ride to NYP or LL Bean.
Two locations: Mass Ave (right in the heart of MIT), or Main Street. Located between two Red Line stations,
however. But Mass Ave has the No. 1 bus which is the main "crosstown" line from Harvard to Dudley, with
Central Square and Hynes in between.