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Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1547499  by Gilbert B Norman
 
bostontrainguy wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:49 pm
Jeff Smith wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:38 am Perhaps the 5 hour savings on equipment turns could be used to run the Star to Boston.
YES! Absolutely agree.
Mr. Trainguy, the Kennedys got you folks enough "pull" up your way as is.

First, you got the BIG ONE; 157 miles of new electrification rather than "important connection" standing such as the Empire and Keystone Corridors had to accept.

Then, you got 448-9 restored as a BOS-CHI train. The connection at ALB was hardly away from people hours and I think was X-platform. While some passenger convenience (I guess) was added ("listening to the music" up there on the head would hardly be to me), this required the commissary to stock bed linens, have qualified SCSA's at your base, mechanical forces qualified on Viewliner equipment, and additional F&B menu items not otherwise needed to be inventoried. You may even get a BOS-WAS Sleeper line again, which I must admit would not require much in the way of additional infrastructure as those two additional cars would rotate through 448-9 consists and eventually make their way in revenue service to HIA for periodics by means of a 48-SSY-97 assignment.

So extending 91-92 to BOS would simply mean operating another train over railroad that is already "slotted full"; unless you care to lean on the Commodore of the Fairfield Navy to accept fewer "movable bridge" movements. :-D :-D
Last edited by Gilbert B Norman on Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 #1547500  by STrRedWolf
 
Oh where to begin... let me set some parameters:

Cooridors should be at most max 8 hours end to end between major city pairs.

The cooridors?
  • WAS-NYP-BOS: The Regional and Acela
  • JAX-Sanford-Orlando-Miami: Florida Express
  • Oklahoma City-Fort Worth-San Antonio or Oklahoma City-Fort Worth-Dallas-Houston (assuming Texas HSR)
  • LA-Emeryville-Sacramento
  • Seattle-Portland-Sacramento
  • Chicago-St. Louis-Kansas City
  • Chicago-Quincy
  • Chicago-Milwaukee
  • Chicago-Grand Rapids
  • Chicago-Port Huron
  • Chicago-Pontiac
  • Chicago-Cleveland
  • Chicago-Carbondale
So: Combine runs, and reduce duplication. Move stuff off the NEC and out of NYP.
  • Cut the Vermonter to New Haven-St. Albans.
  • Replace the Pennsylvanian with the Three Rivers (Cleveland-Pittsburgh-Philadelphia)
  • Depending on load to NYP, cut the Keystone to Harrisburg-Philadelpha 30th Street.
  • Truncate the Ethan Allan Express and Adirondack to Albany-Rensselaer.
  • Cut the Lake Shore Limited branch to NYP.
  • Cut any south-of-DC service down to DC, except for the NEC. This includes the Cresent.
  • Cut the Silver Star at Tampa. If they're going to Miami, transfer them at Jacksonville or Orlando.
  • Cut the entire Palmetto. The Silver Meteor covers it.
  • Combine the Lincon and Missouri River Runner.
  • Extend the California Cooridor or Pacific Surfliner to meet each other.
 #1547537  by eolesen
 
I'm really not sure Phoenix-LA is fully justified.

It's an 8 hour train ride vs. 5 hours on I-10, and that doesn't include the "last mile" time when arriving in either LA or PHX.

Anyone doing a business trip is probably flying for a $200 one-way walkup fare on Southwest vs. $154 for a room or $40 for a coach seat, and that doesn't include the 8-14 hours of lost time that they'll spend taking the train vs. flying or driving.
 #1547557  by Tadman
 
It's certainly at the limit, and there isn't much between. I ride overnight LA-Tucson and it works great, but that's not the same.

I think Phoenix-Tucson is a much better focus area, but is that an Amtrak thing? An Arizonatrak thing? A Virgin-Brightline thing?

In the past I've advocated that it's a perfect Virgin-Brightline thing. There are some wicked good endpoints at both ends like military bases, very large universities, airports, sports stadiums, etc... in the middle is a existing ROW with plenty of space to be leased or bought for new tracks. In the middle is also a sparsely developed area that could be turned into retirement homes, student housing, base housing, etc... and perhaps a concert venue or the like. In other words, the realestate component that was so critical to Brightline is available.
 #1547578  by RWERN
 
My plan is a comprehensive rework of the existing services.
It's a route rationalization by cutting the network up more than cutting the network down.
No new routes but breaking up and rerouting existing routes and segments to do the following:
- Reduce end-to-end distance (theoretical improvement in reliability/on-time performance/frequencies)
- Reduce emphasis on very long journeys (not competitive with driving or flying)
- Free up capacity on corridors (increased corridor frequencies/reliability)
- Reduce duplication of stops in territory covered by other services (decreases travel time, delays)
- Reroute to serve population centers (increase in ridership/revenue)

Yes, I realize doing most of these things requires big investment, but is the idea to make Amtrak cost less or be more cost-effective?

I tried to cover every service. Corridors mainly just need to do minor continued improvement.

Acela Express - Continued improvement
Adirondack - Nonstop NYP-ALB combined with Ethan Allen Express
Auto Train - Continued improvement, especially around terminal operations
Blue Water - Continued improvement
California Zephyr - Split CHI-DEN & DEN-EMY, reroute PCT-OMA via IAIS (adding stops Moline, Iowa City, Grinnell, Des Moines, Atlantic)... further splitting may be possible at SLC and OMA
Capitol Corridor - Continued improvement
Capitol Limited - Reroute via Youngstown
Cardinal - Shorten and split CHI-CIN & CIN-WAS. Reroute LAF-IND adding stops Frankfort, Lebanon, and Speedway.
Carolinian - Shorten WAS-CLT
Cascades - Continued improvement
City of New Orleans - Split and reroute CHI-MEM (via Grand Crossing) & MEM-NOL
Coast Starlight - Shorten and split, PDX-EMY & EMY-LAX
Crescent - Shorten and split, WAS-ATL & ATL-NOL
Downeaster - Continued improvement
Empire Builder - Shorten MSP-SPK with CHI-MSP, SPK-SEA, SPK-PDX as independent connecting routes with added frequency; drop GLN on CHI-MSP portion (service left on Metra and Hiawatha Service)
Empire Service - Continued improvement
Ethan Allen Express - Nonstop NYP-ALB combined with Adirondack, extend via Burlington NYP-SAB (later NYP-MTR)
Heartland Flyer - Split and extend, FTW-SAS & FTW-KCY (via Wichita)
Hiawatha Service - Continued improvement
Illinois Zephyr/Carl Sandburg - Continued improvement, drop stop at LAG (devolve to Metra)
Illini/Saluki - Continued improvement, reroute via Grand Crossing
Keystone Service - Devolve smaller stops on PHL-HAR segment to extended SEPTA commuter service
Lake Shore Limited - Limited stops in New York, BUF-ALB-NYP, better connections with Empire Service for "local" stops
Lincoln Service - Continued improvement, drop stop at SMT (devolve to Metra)
Maple Leaf - Continued improvement (per Empire Service), reduce Canadian stops (devolve to GO Transit)
Missouri River Runner - Continued improvement
Northeast Regional - Continued improvement
Pacific Surfliner - Limited stops in Metrolink/Coaster commuter territory
Palmetto - Change termini, WAS-JAX
Pennsylvanian - Change termini, PHL-CLE (via Youngstown)
Pere Marqutte - Continued improvement, consolidate route with other Michigan Services, adding stops at NBU and MCI
Piedmont - Continued improvement
Southwest Chief - Split and reroute, CHI-KCY, KCY-DEN (added stops at Manhattan, Salina, Hays, Colby, Burlington, Limon), & DEN-LAX (reroute via Williams)
San Joaquins - Continued improvement
Silver Star - Shorten and split WAS-TPA & TPA-MIA (as state-supported corridor)
Silver Meteor - Shorten WAS-MIA
Sunset Limited - Split and reroute, SAS-NOL & LAX-FTW (incl. reroute to Phoenix and new stops at Odessa/Midland, Abilene, and Weatherford on ELP-FTW segment)
Texas Eagle - Shorten, split, and reroute, FTW-SAS & FTW-MEM (via LRK)
Valley Flyer/Shuttle - Limited stops NHV-HFD-SPG, local stops devolved to increased CTrail frequencies
Vermonter - Shorten NYP-SAB (later NYP-MTR)
Wolverine - Devolve DET-PNT segment to future MItrain commuter route
 #1547612  by bostontrainguy
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:38 pm Mr. Trainguy, the Kennedys got you folks enough "pull" up your way as is.
. . .
So extending 91-92 to BOS would simply mean operating another train over railroad that is already "slotted full"; unless you care to lean on the Commodore of the Fairfield Navy to accept fewer "movable bridge" movements. :-D :-D
Mr Norman,
I am speaking from experience and selfishness. Right now if I want to take a train from Boston to Florida, I can check my bags at South Station but my luggage will arrive the day after I do. On the return trip my luggage has to be picked up the next day at South Station. I have in the past taken my luggage to South Station the night before our trip so that it is in Florida when we get there. Do you think anyone who is not at least a semi-railfan is going to put up with that?

The need to change in New York Penn coupled with the lack of through luggage makes the trip a bit of a hassle. If there absolutely is no way to add a train on the NEC north of New Haven, then run it via the inland route. It's more populated anyway.
Last edited by bostontrainguy on Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 #1547617  by mtuandrew
 
I have thoughts about RWERN’s post, but first want to address btg’s point:

Amtrak needs at least four NEC regional
trains with baggage per direction, about 6 hours apart. And, they must travel the full length of the NEC to BOS via PVD, not just WAS-NYP or WAS-NHV-SPG. The Silver Service doesn’t necessarily need to reach BOS in my opinion, but the baggage service is an easy-to-resolve problem.

—————

Now, if you have relatively frequent baggage service on the NEC and its branches, you can reasonably terminate southern & western trains at Washington or Philadelphia and offer connecting service to other NEC points. That seems to be RWERN’s argument for several trains. It makes especial sense for the Palmetto to reach JAX, and he makes a good argument for CLE service via the Pennsylvanian. It’s unfortunate that a high proportion of customers on both of those trains are bound for NYC or nearby, and unless Amtrak can consistently make a cross-platform transfer happen at WAS and PHL respectively, it’ll likely cut their ridership.

I don’t mind cutting some LDs in half. NOL-SAS & SAS-LAX is a good one, as are CHI-DEN & DEN-EMY and (NYP-)WAS-ATL & ATL-NOL. There’s an argument to be made for (SEA-)PDX-EMY and EMY-LAX as well, though less compelling, and I feel CHI-MEM and MEM-NOL is less compelling yet. I’m having a hard time trimming the Empire Builder to MSP-SPK though, without a car shop in MSP or SPK to do running repairs. Same for the Southwest Chief, even if DEN was a practical end point (and the host railroad Union Pacific has made it clear Amtrak isn’t welcome over either the direct KCY-DEN route or the shared route north from Pueblo.) EDIT: I guess you could cut to a CHI-KCY, KCY-ABQ, ABQ-LAX triplet, but unless you make ABQ (Belen) a repair shop and regional hub to DEN and ELP I don’t see the benefit.

It’s a little hard to see how that route structure saves Amtrak any cars or money too. Unless you’re chopping nearly all LD routes to 3x/week (west of Denver and San Antonio, south of Atlanta, maybe north of Sacramento, maybe alternating days MSP-SEA and MSP-PDX), you have to provide the same number of cars for regional service as you do for through LDs.
 #1547620  by David Benton
 
IS there a restriction on the number of trains over the bridges at nite? Simplest connection form boston would be at nite, timed to hit NYP at midnite = 1a.m, Washington would be odd hours but they have plenty of connections south .
 #1547634  by STrRedWolf
 
mtuandrew wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:58 pm It’s unfortunate that a high proportion of customers on both of those trains are bound for NYC or nearby, and unless Amtrak can consistently make a cross-platform transfer happen at WAS and PHL respectively, it’ll likely cut their ridership.
The best way of doing that is with high-level platforms and enough clearance.

PHL has the ability to do that easily but clearance issues limits it to Viewliner equipment. WAS can handle the equipment but has limited track capacity (3 tracks now?) and it's low platform. The Capital Limited I think is Viewliner equipment, as it goes over CSX lines north-west bound through Martinsburg and not south-west through Virginia.

...and now we're down to infrastructure and equipment issues again.
 #1547639  by bostontrainguy
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:57 am
mtuandrew wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:58 pm It’s unfortunate that a high proportion of customers on both of those trains are bound for NYC or nearby, and unless Amtrak can consistently make a cross-platform transfer happen at WAS and PHL respectively, it’ll likely cut their ridership.
The best way of doing that is with high-level platforms and enough clearance.

PHL has the ability to do that easily but clearance issues limits it to Viewliner equipment. WAS can handle the equipment but has limited track capacity (3 tracks now?) and it's low platform. The Capital Limited I think is Viewliner equipment, as it goes over CSX lines north-west bound through Martinsburg and not south-west through Virginia.

...and now we're down to infrastructure and equipment issues again.
Washington Union Station will soon have four run-through tracks on the lower level.

https://wtop.com/business-finance/2020/ ... -platform/

And of course with Superliners you would need to keep the low-level platforms.

But keeping on subject and expanding the thinking about this . . . how much money would Amtrak save by running one big Florida train with Superliners Washington to Orlando and splitting it there into an Orlando - Tampa section and a Orlando - Miami section?

I could take it even one step further and suggest that the Capitol Limited (which is a Superliner train) be this train and run it through Washington to Florida and now you have so many more possibilities.

Keep the idea of a separate Tampa - Miami coach train also running. And Amtrak must offer checked baggage from all major points on the NEC through to Florida and make the transfer as easy as possible.
 #1547643  by STrRedWolf
 
bostontrainguy wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:32 pm I could take it even one step further and suggest that the Capitol Limited (which is a Superliner train) be this train and run it through Washington to Florida and now you have so many more possibilities.

Keep the idea of a separate Tampa - Miami coach train also running. And Amtrak must offer checked baggage from all major points on the NEC through to Florida and make the transfer as easy as possible.
Chicago-Washington-Miami... I had to see if this was viable, and tested it out. There's at least a 6 hour layover in Washington, but it'll be a two night train... and I bet a double diesel.

My question would be, if it's fully fueled in Chicago, will it have enough plus some to spare by Miami?
 #1547646  by R36 Combine Coach
 
That could tap into the Midwest-Florida market. To ask, how much traffic is there between Pittsburgh/Cleveland metro area and Florida? There are some "snowbirds" there too, but not much as NY or BOS.