Would nicer stations in better locations materially help Amtrak ridership?

[SouthernRailway]

Since Amtrak's stations are often derelict and in bad locations, what would the effect be on Amtrak ridership if they were in more prominent locations, and aesthetically attractive?

Examples:

1. Charlotte: The station is in a bad part of town and is run-down. Since Charlotte has numerous trains per day, making Amtrak a viable travel method, what would the impact on ridership be if the station were (as proposed) in central Charlotte, and nice?

2. Greenville, SC: The station is also in a bad part of town, invisible to most of the community. What if the station were new, nice and located in an affluent area? Clemson, SC has a fraction of the population of Greenville, but its station is fine and is very visible to the community, and its ridership, on a per-capita basis, is much higher than Greenville's, even though its service times and frequency are almost the same as Greenville's.

3. NY Penn Station: Enough said. When Amtrak's new concourses open in the former post office, will ridership be affected?

4. Raleigh: It has a new station; did ridership increase once the new station opened?

I'd like to think that better stations would make Amtrak seem like the nice mode of transportation that it is, and better locations would make Amtrak more visible to potential riders, and so nicer stations in better locations would help ridership--but by how much?

[Greg Moore]

I don't think NYP will change much. It's simply too vital as it is. But I'd love to be wrong.
But, I did take the train in/out of Charlotte close to 20 years ago. I assume the station is in the same place and I've got to say, waiting there at night, even with the station open wasn't the most comfortable feeling. Nor was the cab ride from the airport car rental return.

But yes, I think where possible, Amtrak would do better with nicer stations, closer to downtown. But even then there are limits.
I think Denver has done a WONDERFUL job restoring their station and revitalizing the area since my honeymoon. I don't know if it had much of an impact on Amtrak through.

[njtmnrrbuff]

I have never taken a train to and from Charlotte but I passed that station 19 years ago on the Crescent during the middle of the night. I can't say whether if its in a high crime area but from doing my research, I saw that the Amtrak station is rather isolated and for a city like Charlotte, that shouldn't happen. Down the road, the Charlotte Amtrak Depot will be moved to a more centrally located spot, Uptown.

NY Penn Station-I have used this station too many times as I live 12 miles west in NJ. The surrounding neighborhood is fine. There are plenty of local bus and subway connections to other parts of Midtown Manhattan. Plus almost everything in Midtown is within walking distance from NYP. When the brand new concourse opens up below the post office, passengers will be very pleased. It will feel like a true major city train station, rather than a "hole in the wall" transportation hub. Btw, the current concourse that Amtrak uses isn't going anywhere.

The one station that really bothers me and I have mentioned this in different threads-Miami. The station is actually located in Hialeah and there aren't too many transportation connections available at the station. Plus, the station is in a very rough neighborhood. Years ago, the Miami Amtrak Station should have been relocated to the Miami Intermodal Center. Of course, that would mean having to close the grade crossing north of the MIC or just have the street go underneath the tracks.

Amsterdam, NY's Amtrak Station should be relocated back to Downtown Amsterdam. I believe that the tracks pass through downtown and there is probably ample room to build platforms there.

[bdawe]

hasn't Amtrak estimated in the past that a downtown vs peripheral station is worth a good 30-40 percent of ridership for their type of services?

I can think of a few between hence and thence that might improve their location a bit - Vancouver of course is the ex CNoR station, which is at the very periphery of downtown. I suspect that they would have meaningfully better ridership if they could figure out how to terminate at the ex CP depot, which is at the very core of downtown, and is walking distance to a vastly larger number of destinations than the current station, which really requires a local transit connection to get anywhere.

Bellingham station is peripheral to the Fairhaven secondary downtown area, but If they were over at the old GN depot (currently a BNSF yard office) they'd be more centrally located as well. The current station site affords at best a connection to the Alaska Ferry and little else.

Portland Union Station will probably improve somewhat when the giant post office in front of it is developed. At present the post office is a ~block impermiability between Portland Union Station and much of the city

I think there's a whole lot of ambiguity on what an important station amenity, however. If 'nicer' means 'more obstructions between the passenger and the train, like an airport' I don't really think that's going to help ridership

[Albany Rider]

I think nicer stations downtown would attract ridership but should have adequate parking.

For example, the Schenectady, NY opened in December 2018 is in the downtown heart has little parking & Amtrak sold its nearby parking lot.

I have used the Greenville, SC station & it is difficult to find. My pickup by a local relative got lost for a while. (Thank You Greenville PD for your help.)

Tony

[SouthernRailway]

If 'nicer' means 'more obstructions between the passenger and the train, like an airport' I don't really think that's going to help ridership

Portland and its station are beautiful. I've taken the Coast Starlight and a Talgo train to/from that station.

By "nicer" I mean "passable enough so that a middle-class suburban woman won't be afraid of being there".

The Greenville, SC station itself is fine although spartan, but it's not "nicer"--it's in a scary area (although, oddly, just about 2 blocks from a beautiful historic district). The Charlotte station also is not "nicer"; it's also in a scary area. Middle-class suburban women would not want to go to either, at least without their car doors locked and a can of Mace. (I am a pretty tall guy and I don't have concerns about safety, but women do, enough that safety concerns could impact ridership.)

These days, NY Penn is also scary- desolate, and the only people in it being scary people.

[Pensyfan19]

I think nicer stations downtown would attract ridership but should have adequate parking.

For example, the Schenectady, NY opened in December 2018 is in the downtown heart has little parking & Amtrak sold its nearby parking lot.

I have used the Greenville, SC station & it is difficult to find. My pickup by a local relative got lost for a while. (Thank You Greenville PD for your help.)

Tony

I agree with this statement. I feel that a train station should be easily accessible via car and other forms of public transportation, and should be as close to the town as possible. For example, Amtrak's Lansing station is further away from the original GTW station in the center of town. Amtrak should reutilize the original stations and other towns where their station is too far away from the center of town, so this way it can be more convenient to commute within the town or city than having to rent a car or take a taxi to get there.

[mtuandrew]

A couple observations:
-MSP is an infinitely nicer station at St. Paul Union Depot than at Midway. Ridership has gone up.
-PGH is at the edge of a developed neighborhood at the legacy location, but the station itself sucks (I too have had trouble with my ride finding the place.) Poor train timing doesn’t help, but that didn’t really change for MSP when ridership went up.

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Take a page from Maslow and lets address as many needs as we can. I’m not suggesting stations need to have yoga studios and writers’ retreats, but some don’t even provide the most basic human needs.

[SouthernRailway]

Maybe Amtrak ought to do like Brightline did: have a designated Lyft pick-up area at each station, with a big Lyft sign. That would at least (for stations such as Charlotte and Greenville, SC) make them seem like somehow the First World is not far away.

[mtuandrew]

Maybe Amtrak ought to do like Brightline did: have a designated Lyft pick-up area at each station, with a big Lyft sign. That would at least (for stations such as Charlotte and Greenville, SC) make them seem like somehow the First World is not far away.

This is the best idea I’ve seen in a while here, and you should send it to Amtrak immediately.

[Greg Moore]

Since someone brought up Schenectady NY, I should point out that that Amtrak neither owns the station, nor I believe the land.
Like the Albany station, it's owned and operated by the local transit company CDTA.

I haven't been in the new Schenectady station yet, but the location is in an up and thriving area of Schenectady.

[njtmnrrbuff]

There are plenty of homeless people around NY Penn Station.

That's great that the area around the Schenectady train station is improving. I might take a trip there in one of the next few years.

One station that is probably in a very rough area is Flint, Michigan. The majority of that city has seen better days anyway. I remember five years ago, I rode the Blue Water from Pt. Huron to K-zoo. I noticed barbed wire at the train station.

I agree about the Pittsburgh Station. It's not an attractive facility. I have been through there many times and have ended my journey there a lot. The great thing is that it's along the edge of downtown. Neighborhood is pretty good.

[wigwagfan]

Portland Union Station will probably improve somewhat when the giant post office in front of it is developed. At present the post office is a ~block impermiability between Portland Union Station and much of the city

The bulk of downtown Portland is to the south, not the west, of Union Station; the approach ramp to the Broadway Bridge will always be an obstacle and is going nowhere.

The issue with Portland is the massive homeless camp that occupies the blocks to the south of Union Station (around the now shuttered Greyhound station) and the legal heroin clinic that is across the street from Union Station. Nothing like getting off the train to watch a bunch of strung out druggies with needles in their arms...the station is so bad that despite being owned by the People of the City of Portland, there are massive huge signs saying "Ticketed Passengers Only", ropes and stanchions that direct people first to the ticket counter, security guards...

[RRspatch]

Regarding Charlotte isn't there a plan to build a new station between 4th street and Trade street? This would be closer to downtown (though not on the Light Rail line) and right next to the Greyhound bus station. The rail line is elevated at this point with lots of parking nearby.

Looking at Google maps I see the light rail line has a track that loops around the Spectrum Center ending at a platform on Trade street. This segment could be extended to the future Amtrak station I mentioned above.

[Tadman]

In 1992, South Shore trains were moved out of the grubby Bendix depot shared with Amtrak and over to the airport. Ridership went way up. People do not want to wait for a late train in a rough area, and they sure don't want to leave their car in a rough area.

Maybe Amtrak ought to do like Brightline did: have a designated Lyft pick-up area at each station, with a big Lyft sign. That would at least (for stations such as Charlotte and Greenville, SC) make them seem like somehow the First World is not far away.

This is the best idea I’ve seen in a while here, and you should send it to Amtrak immediately.

This idea works so well because it focuses on a seamless approach to travel. Passengers aren't riding the train to see what kind of train they can get, they're riding a train to get somewhere as easily as possible.