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  • Do Long-Distance trains need sleepers?

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1543629  by mtuandrew
 
Alphaboi wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 5:08 pm I don't think Amtrak should ditch their current sleepers; they need to add more sleepers they can be sold st a lower price point. Something economical for solo travelers.
Agreed, go after the Hampton Inn & Suites or even the Fairfield crowd and not just the Hilton Hotel crowd.
Alphaboi wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 5:08 pm Open sections or couchette cars would work much better than parlor or 2:1 seating for overnight travel. Couchettes would also be a great option for families and small groups.
I don’t agree on open sections personally, it’s a little too regimented for a modern traveler who just wants to go to sleep when they want. However, there’s something to be said for a 2 twin bed + 1
kid-size bed couchette, especially one that could be used as a suite. That’s a better use of space than the family bedroom.

Either way, this sounds like an experiment worth doing (like the old AmPad on the Shenandoah?)
Alphaboi wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 5:08 pm Have a bistro car with a la carte food in addition (or instead) instead of a full service diner .
Amtrak is doing that already, but making a hash of the concept. That’s another thread.
 #1543632  by Alphaboi
 
Nightjet's next generation cars are a great example of what to shoot for. I think Americans would find the solo pods even more appealing than section or traditional couchettes, but the lack of daytime configuration is problematic. They'd only work on work on strictly overnight routes.

https://www.nightjet.com/en/komfortkate ... jetzukunft

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 #1543645  by CarterB
 
As I have been advocating for years, bring back the slumbercoaches!!! The single and double slumbers were a perfect configuration and had good layouts for the cost. The beds were quite adequate and comfortable, and they were roomy enough for all but those who had HUGE suitcases or luggage. I rode them with my family for years, and was quite satisfied, comparing costs, at the time, to roomettes or bedrooms, on the Broadway, Silver Meteor, and others that I traveled on. The 24/8 configuration well utilized space in a car, maximizing utilization for up to 40 travelers.
 #1543649  by west point
 
IMO --- Until Amtrak meets and exceeds the demand for current equipment configurations it does not need to configure cars in other ways. It is better to have one lay out for coach and one layout for sleepers. Once there a are enough coaches then configure some new ones for business class. Then other configurations can be considered. We have to remember that there may be more trains even before enough cars are placed into service.
 #1543661  by SouthernRailway
 
west point wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 10:43 pm IMO --- Until Amtrak meets and exceeds the demand for current equipment configurations it does not need to configure cars in other ways. It is better to have one lay out for coach and one layout for sleepers. Once there a are enough coaches then configure some new ones for business class. Then other configurations can be considered. We have to remember that there may be more trains even before enough cars are placed into service.
Well, when Viewliners are sold out (which is common), how many of the individual beds are in use? If Amtrak is selling many of its roomettes (which can fit 2 people) to just one person then it makes sense to reconfigure some of the sleepers to have rooms for 1, since occupancy rates could thus increase.

The Nightjet link shows that its trains have 2 sleepers, 3 couchette cars and 2 coaches. That suggests that there is a lot of demand for a mid-tier class of service (couchettes) that Amtrak does not offer.
 #1543694  by mtuandrew
 
SRY: if we’re being real, Amtrak does offer mid-level accommodations (the Roomette, especially the Superliner and V-II Roomette without a toilet ) but at full-service prices. A 2-3 bed single or 4-6 bed double couchette just dispenses with the pretense.

CarterB: I’d like to see that experiment. Build ten, and deploy four Slumbercoaches each for the Crescent NYP-ATL and the Lake Shore Limited NYP-CHI. To make it a fair experiment, deploy a pair of Superliner parlor cars (1+1 staggered seating) on the Capitol Limited, offering similar amenities and proportional pricing, then see what’s more profitable.
 #1543700  by SouthernRailway
 
mtuandrew wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 5:04 pm SRY: if we’re being real, Amtrak does offer mid-level accommodations (the Roomette, especially the Superliner and V-II Roomette without a toilet ) but at full-service prices. A 2-3 bed single or 4-6 bed double couchette just dispenses with the pretense.

CarterB: I’d like to see that experiment. Build ten, and deploy four Slumbercoaches each for the Crescent NYP-ATL and the Lake Shore Limited NYP-CHI. To make it a fair experiment, deploy a pair of Superliner parlor cars (1+1 staggered seating) on the Capitol Limited, offering similar amenities and proportional pricing, then see what’s more profitable.
Correct.

For my commute, coach is $120 and a roomette is $380. I am not traveling in coach and flying (even first class) is less than $380. So service at the price point between $120 and $380 is a big gap and even I usually fly.

Amtrak is also missing out on filling its roomettes in that if a solo traveler books one, Amtrak loses out on revenue from selling the room to two passengers, so Amtrak should want to have solo passengers book another accommodation in cases of sold out sleepers.
 #1543707  by CarterB
 
mtuandrew wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 5:04 pm CarterB: I’d like to see that experiment. Build ten, and deploy four Slumbercoaches each for the Crescent NYP-ATL and the Lake Shore Limited NYP-CHI. To make it a fair experiment, deploy a pair of Superliner parlor cars (1+1 staggered seating) on the Capitol Limited, offering similar amenities and proportional pricing, then see what’s more profitable.
I'd support your idea wholeheartedly!!
Price the slumbercoach on the routes as ratio of slumber havinng 40 berths vs the number of berths ratio on superliner total per car berths
 #1543725  by mtuandrew
 
CarterB wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 7:08 pm I'd support your idea wholeheartedly!!
Price the slumbercoach on the routes as ratio of slumber havinng 40 berths vs the number of berths ratio on superliner total per car berths
Seems reasonable.

In the spirit of Mr. Maitland’s original post, let’s define the rules.
-I’m assuming that we won’t be able to fit 40 Slumbercoach compartments in a Viewliner due to modern regulatory and Amtrak-specific reasons, but we should be able to get 32 compartments, an Accessible Bedroom, a crew Roomette, and bathroom facilities. Likewise, we can plan for an equivalent Parlor car with 32 seats, an Accessible Bedroom, a crew office and bathrooms.
-For expediency and a truer comparison, the Slumbercoach compartments won’t have sinks or toilets. Neither will offer sheets or a turn-down service (all seats will be adjustable by passengers.) Meal service will be via a ticket upgrade at purchase or onboard. And, don’t expect an individual thermostat in your compartment.
-I’ll allow a microfridge (sized for a 2L soda, a six-pack, or a bottle of Mr. Norman’s grape juice) for each seat in both car types. Both will offer a prepacked complimentary blanket, pillow, eye mask and earplugs. Otherwise, expect a window shade, a 110VAC outlet & pair of USB-A outlets, an air vent, a tray table, a personal ambient/ceiling light and a spotlight.
-Any other differences - seat type & comfort level, sound deadening, temperature control & ventilation, etc - we’ll try to make pretty close. The main tradeoff seems like it’ll be privacy and possibly sound control versus headroom and at-seat luggage space.

How about we further set it up as a double-blind test? For the first couple months, Amtrak can sell “enhanced accommodations” with no guarantee of which type they’ll
get, and then surprise customers with their berth/seat when they come aboard. Call it Schrödinger’s Coach :wink: and get as much survey information from riders as possible.

Once Amtrak gets the first round of feedback, it can specifically assign types of cars to specific trainsets. Meaning, if you book for a given Tuesday you could get a Parlor seat but not a Slumbercoach; if you book for the following Wednesday you can get a Slumbercoach compartment but not a Parlor seat. These would rotate through the week, meaning some Fridays you could get a Slumbercoach and some others you could get a Parlor seat. See which day gets more bookings.

After the second round and as more cars come available, the final round would be to offer both on one train (or at least one type each on parallel trains, like the Cap & LSL or the Star & Meteor.) See which type gets more bookings and at what fare bucket, and see what the customer reviews are.

That’s a lot, but does it sound reasonable to you?
 #1543736  by Gilbert B Norman
 
What outside party would ever touch it?

After the Iowa Pacific misadventures with both Pullman Rail and Hoosier State, the Subway food service fiasco; both of which using "scabs', the many a failed "luxotrain" or even "luxocars", again, who's going to touch one?

While such is not prohibited by RPSA70 or subsequent Amtrak legislation. Amtrak has "not exactly" laid out the welcome mat for any such operations; and nothing within their "culture" will reverse such.

Finally, lest we forget, The Pullman Company, operated Sleeping , and some Dining, Cars with employees under Agreements collectively bargained under the Railway Labor Act. From 1947, pursuant to a 1944 Court decision holding that a company both building and operating railcars was a restraint on trade, until "The End" on December 31, 1968, The Pullman Company was a "Jointly Owned Terminal and Switching Company" of the railroads operating Sleeping Cars.
 #1543739  by bdawe
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:56 am What outside party would ever touch it?
Obviously there's some sort of market, because the Rocky Mountaineer exists and has existed for some time now producing enough of a return to justify new-build custom rolling stock.

But notably, they do not run any sleeper, and passengers stay overnight in hotels in Kamloops
Last edited by mtuandrew on Mon May 25, 2020 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total. Reason: reduced quote
 #1543742  by Gilbert B Norman
 
bdawe wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:38 am But notably, they do not run any sleeper, and passengers stay overnight in hotels in Kamloops
There's the key, Mr. Dawe.

Rocky Mountaineer is a Coach train - albeit "Luxocoach".

Obviously, CP decided that their scenically superior route (agree; ridden 'em both) had a price tag; and a private concern was willing to "outbid" one belonging to The Crown.

By that same token, what keeps the Union Pacific from kicking Amtrak off the D&RGW (accommodating them on the Overland Route) and seeking a private operator willing to pay "a mite bit more" for the rights than Amtrak with their bargain basement remuneration?

disclaimer: author long UNP (wouldn't be opposed to any such plan)
 #1543743  by bdawe
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 10:03 am
bdawe wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:38 am But notably, they do not run any sleeper, and passengers stay overnight in hotels in Kamloops
There's the key, Mr. Dawe.

Rocky Mountaineer is a Coach train - albeit "Luxocoach".

Obviously, CP decided that their scenically superior route (agree; ridden 'em both) had a price tag; and a private concern was willing to "outbid" one belonging to The Crown.

By that same token, what keeps the Union Pacific from kicking Amtrak off the D&RGW (accommodating them on the Overland Route) and seeking a private operator willing to pay "a mite bit more" for the rights than Amtrak with their bargain basement remuneration?

disclaimer: author long UNP (wouldn't be opposed to any such plan)
My understanding is that the Rocky Mountaineer originated more in the bowels of VIA Rail, and a bit of federal government side wheeling-and-dealing that resulted in their scenic tourist service being privatized to one of Vancouver's richer inhabitants, but with ample required support from VIA during the early years.

Isn't what keeps Amtrak on the d&rgw is their general intercity rights transfered from the D&RGW when they joined Amtrak? And probably the fact that Union Pacific is happier to not have Amtrak mucking up their priority freight schedules on the Overland Route?
 #1543747  by SouthernRailway
 
Alphaboi wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 5:08 pm I don't think Amtrak should ditch their current sleepers; they need to add more sleepers they can be sold st a lower price point. Something economical for solo travelers. Open sections or couchette cars would work much better than parlor or 2:1 seating for overnight travel. Couchettes would also be a great option for families and small groups. Have a bistro car with a la carte food in addition (or instead) instead of a full service diner .

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Agreed. Not sure if the change to room service only on Eastern LD trains is permanent, but with the change to Flexible Dining, there's no need for a full dining car. A car with a mix of (1) a few tables, (2) real lounge space (not the high school cafeteria tables in Amfleet II lounges) and (3) a small food service area should suffice.