Trespassing & filming questions

[MEC407]

The worst one that I have seen so far comes from the Exteme Trains series episode about the UP/CSX perishable train to Rotterdam, NY. A conductor is shown on the hind end of a car during a shove. I'm not qualified to say for sure if it is allowed in the situation shown, but that's usually a big no-no being aired to a wide audience.

At least in a situation like that, there would have been several cameras, lots of production crew people, etc... the conductor was probably very aware that he was being filmed, and perhaps even knew ahead of time that he would be filmed. It's not like the TV crew was hiding in the bushes and caught the guy unaware.

[Mikejf]

A conductor is shown on the hind end of a car during a shove.

I thought during shoving move it was a requirement for someone to watch the end. I'm sure there are rules for it, watching several conductors/brakemen do it myself over the years. May even have some video of it, but it is on VHS and never going to be brodcast anywhere accept my TV.
Mike

[Lincoln78]

In my time reading railroad.net the moderators and railroad employees, as well as most of the foamers, have been very quick to note and condemn trespassing on railroad or private property.

I had to think a lot about some of the other issues raised at the beginning of this thread. My early professional training reminded us that we are always watched (I had leadership positions with a responsibility to ensure that our coworkers followed the procedures in the interest of safety and standardization). This is particularly important when you are doing a task that can affect personal or public safety. Railroaders, not only does your job fit that description but I regret to note that you, like politicians and Hollywood stars, do something that others find interesting, and you are under public scrutiny beyond the oversight of your management. I suspect Bret Farve wishes that his last play Sunday wasn't recorded...

Vakharn, you are a gentleman for editing your videos. Fortunately railroading’s safety record is good enough that the media do not feel a need to stalk railroaders in action. The trend is that more of our lives, not less, will be on tape and open to observation. Seen security at the mall lately? I suspect Bret Farve wishes that his last play Sunday wasn't recorded...

My first thought on viewing Boxcar Frank’s video was pity for the gentleman who was having so much trouble getting down from his engine. A similar video of a handicapped person getting out of car would be in poor taste. My second thought was to wonder how much UP pays attention to their employees’ physical condition. INeither of them looked like they would have had an easy time pulling the other out of the cab if there had been a mishap. The railroads do not require medical exams as a means to harass employees, they require them because good physical condition is essential to carry out the job. I think most people on this board are happy that only one airline pilot died in flight last year- I’m glad that that there is a system keeps the unhealthy out of the cockpit. If his lack of skill in exiting the cab been caused by alcohol consumption would people have been upset with Frank for taking the picture?

/Not an attorney. I suspect that railroad employees have no legal coverage against being anonymously photographed from public-access land. Within railroad net I hope that everybdy displays the courtesy and sense that Vakharn did.
//Be safe out there.

[gprimr1]

I think you make a good point about the idea of railroads being subject to public review. It is true railroads carry a lot of dangerous, dangerous material; from the chlorine trains to the dreaded nuclear trains I agree that they are subject to public watch (providing its done from public land).

That said, I think discretion is a big aspect. We all cut corners one way or another. I'm a sociology major, and in one of our classes we learned the quite true notion that if everyone followed every rule, nothing would ever get done.

So yeah, if you see the nuclear train driver talking with some suspicious people, or the chlorine train driver asleep, that's worth reporting because that is a clear and present danger. With this guy in the video, I've acted like that after I had a bad day, plus he has like 4 bags to handle.

[TPR37777]

No offense to the railroad employees that frequent this site, but raifans owe NOTHING to railroaders and if a crew is caught on camera committing rules violations then too bad. Truth be told, most railroaders hold railfans in utter contempt and are quite open about it. If a crew doesn't want to be caught in violation then they ought damned well follow the rules that they are required to. This idea that you wouldn't want to get someone "in trouble" is absurd, these crews aren't out performing a pageant for our benefit, they are doing a job in full view of the world with all that that entails, including the possibility of being filmed. As for the wannabe cops on this and other sites that jump on in with the mantra "trespassing!", let them worry about themselves instead of everyone else. Most of the time it is jealousy that stokes this phenomenon, jealousy of a shot that they couldn't or wouldn't dare get. Some people on these sites would have you believe that the police haul off dozens of people a day for trespassing...please! The idea that a railrad crew could sue a railfan for filming them committing rules violations is laughable. Send the video into the FRA and see who gets spanked for it. We are all big boys and girls, or at least so I thought.

[mick]

Well, you might be right, but two can play at that game. One rule that is being really pushed nowadays is reporting suspicious people on or near railroad property, especially if they are recording or taking notes. Not only because of 9/11, but also because of theft and vandalism. You could get a visit from the TSA or Homeland Security people, not just the RRPD. Who's up for some waterboarding?

[Noel Weaver]

No offense to the railroad employees that frequent this site, but raifans owe NOTHING to railroaders and if a crew is caught on camera committing rules violations then too bad. Truth be told, most railroaders hold railfans in utter contempt and are quite open about it. If a crew doesn't want to be caught in violation then they ought damned well follow the rules that they are required to. This idea that you wouldn't want to get someone "in trouble" is absurd, these crews aren't out performing a pageant for our benefit, they are doing a job in full view of the world with all that that entails, including the possibility of being filmed. As for the wannabe cops on this and other sites that jump on in with the mantra "trespassing!", let them worry about themselves instead of everyone else. Most of the time it is jealousy that stokes this phenomenon, jealousy of a shot that they couldn't or wouldn't dare get. Some people on these sites would have you believe that the police haul off dozens of people a day for trespassing...please! The idea that a railrad crew could sue a railfan for filming them committing rules violations is laughable. Send the video into the FRA and see who gets spanked for it. We are all big boys and girls, or at least so I thought.

With an attitude like this, I am sure that if I was still running trains, I would be on the radio frequently reporting stuff.
Believe me, this attitute can and probably will come back to haunt you. People like you make it bad for the decent people
who like to watch and photograph trains.
Noel Weaver

[MEC407]

Mick and Noel are right. And I'd rather not have this turn into "railfans vs. railroaders" or "hardcore railfans who trespass vs. cautious railfans who don't" -- so maybe now that everybody has had a chance to weigh in, we should move on to other things.

[Hux]

The idea that a railrad crew could sue a railfan for filming them committing rules violations is laughable. Send the video into the FRA and see who gets spanked for it. We are all big boys and girls, or at least so I thought.

Given that it is illegal to make audio or videotape of someone without their permission (invasion of privacy) there is nothing laughable about the idea of litigation. Especially if the taping resulted in the loss of a job...and one that occurs on private property.

[MEC407]

Given that it is illegal to make audio or videotape of someone without their permission (invasion of privacy) there is nothing laughable about the idea of litigation.

That's true if you're in someone's home or office or on their private land, but a railroader who is outdoors and who can be seen from public property does not have a "reasonable expectation of privacy" under the law. If it was illegal to make audio or video of people without their permission in public places, there would be no security cameras or traffic cameras. This is also why you won't find a security camera in a public restroom, because even though it's a public place, a person does have a "reasonable expectation of privacy" when inside a restroom.

If I'm standing on a public sidewalk on a public street, and a train passes over a grade crossing nearby, I have every right to videotape that train, even if the conductor is standing on the front porch of the locomotive or riding the rear car or on the ground throwing a switch. He doesn't have a reasonable expectation of privacy in that situation, and therefore I do not need his permission to film him.

But, as some of us have already agreed, it might be nice/courteous/respectful to avoid filming railroaders, or at least exercise some caution in regards to where and how you display the footage.

[TPR37777]

In Massachusetts It is a misdemeanor to record someone's voice surreptitiously without their permission, but as long as you are not invading someone's personal privacy in order to capture them on video, it is not necessary to have their permission. At what point did we transition to audio recordings? Again, I mean no disrespect to railroad employees, but people are implying a symbiotic relationship between railfans and railroaders where none exists. The paradigm some of you are subscribing to is one in which a railfan's constitutional right to take pictures must somehow be subjugated by the railroad employees right to commit rules violations without discovery, while in the very same breath citing the trespassing statute as being the Eleventh Commandment. So rules only apply to railfans and not railroaders? I have news for you, almost each and every FRA regulation came about over the last two centuries as a result of accidents, even the most minor of infractions can and have led to disaster. I have no horse in this race, I have never taken pictures of trains in my life nor do I watch them with any frequency, but sometimes the attention people give to trains bleeds over into the employees and they emerge with this bizarre fantasy of authority. People shouldn't trespass, and railroaders should adhere to the rules book, but that doesn't mean that either is the responsibility of the other.

[Cadet57]

So not to derail the subject (sorry, no pun intended) but for the sake of arguement are some people saying an image such as the one below wrong? I was standing at the Steaming Tender with permission by the train crew AND the restaurant to photograph. When I uploaded this to RP.net I was abhorred by the screener for uploading an image such as this for "numerous safety violations" and because " we dont want to get anyone in trouble". The only thing I could think of was no hi-viz vest. But you folks be the judge.

[edbac333]

I wasn't going to get involved in this thread but seeing some of the above posts.......When I first started shooting trains I did some dumb things I regret filming crews and I feel bad still(decades later).And I work in a job that I am in a fishbowl.Please people THINK!!!
Looks like time to think about a lock on this thread too.

[whatelyrailfan]

I personally have always followed what I like to call The Three Prime Directives of Railfanning:
These are:
1)Always remember that you are an observer and NOT a participant! (Example: DO NOT climb onto rail cars or other equipment)

2)Use common sense when filming or taking photos, try thinking about what might be interesting to non-railfans for instance. Many people who aren't Railfans ARE interested in photos of locomotives and other equipment, and stations etc. (Boxcar Frank is a PERFECT example of what NOT to do)

3)Watch where you put your damn feet!

While I've been a Railfan pretty much my entire life, I've only had a decent camera for a few years, however I've been lucky enough to have nothing but good experiences (knock wood) while Railfanning. In fact, that's how I met A.J. Belliveau a few years ago, at Enfield Transit Mix.

[Amtrak700]

this is for tpr77777, i read your post, and as a longtime railroader, and rail enthusiast, all i can say is "wow" what kind of a--hole would post such a idiotic comment? people like you make good railfans look bad, whats your profession, im sure you are a perfect employee, and never made a mistake right? some poor man lost his job, with a family to feed, and a mortgage to pay, because some jerk off thought it was funny, he couldnt get off a locomotive? unreal, its people like you who should be arrested for tresspassing. ive seen some stupid actions when on a train for people to get the "great shot", and usually let it go, if a railroader makes a mistake, it could have grave results, and for some stupid buff, to think its funny? come on guy, get a life, find a new hobby, stay away from the railroad, like i said people like you are what makes some railroaders dislike buffs.Get a clue man.....