Passenger Equipped FA-2s and FB-2s

[SSW9389]

Dang, I am glad I started this thread. Everyone is drawing some of the same conclusions I did: there is no complete list, The Diesel Shop lists do not concur with Kirkland, nor do either concur with Steinbrenner.

I noticed in my Louisville & Nashville Diesel Locomotives that the five L&N FPA-2s weigh in at 255,300 pounds and that the regular FA-2s weigh 243,500. This weight difference gives some credence to equipment differences between the two models making for nearly a 6 ton difference. Messers Castner, Flanary, and Gordon found that the L&N indeed had five FPA-2s. Steinbrenner found the same thing. The X2200 roster has them as FA-2s, same for Diesel Shop.

The Extra 2200 South roster that the Diesel Shop Roster is based on appears dated to me. I tend to agree that an FA-2 or FB-2 with a steam generator should get the P designation. Howsomever are all steam generators and water tanks created alike. Do some of these units have different equipment options? And are six of those Cuban FA-2s carrying steam generators?

Steinbrenner has a photo of the 1602 demo set on page 304. He clearly labels them as FPA-2 and FPB-2s. Ben Ringwalda's GN website shows these units as purely freight, so they evidentily lost their steam gennies when sold to GN.

[Typewriters]

Well, the water tank specified for the FPA-2 was 1200 gallons, and at roughly 8.3 pounds per gallon you'd add around 10,000 lbs of just water mass with the tank full. Add more for the boiler itself and piping and you can get that difference easily.

Just as a supporting example I see that the New York Central's dual-service EMD F-3 units were roughly around 13,000 lbs heavier than their freight counterparts. The dual service or "DCA-2" class units had boilers, internal water tanks and no dynamic brakes. The freight units had no boilers or water tanks of course but did have dynamic brakes. So the weight differences we're discussing here are in the realm of credibility.

I noted on one online roster a given weight for the GN ex-ALCO/GE demonstrator units of 258,000 lbs which correlates roughly to the weight of the L&N units you mention. Did the FPA/FPB demo set have dynamic brakes?

-Will Davis

[scottychaos]

What do we suppose that an FPA-2 is? When you place a steam generator in the ALCO-GE 1600 HP Road Freight-Passenger unit you end up with the FP designation. Saying that the LV had FA-2's with steam generators not FPA-2's is inherently contradictory. This isn't the same thing as, for example, the EMD F-7 and FP-7 where the FP-7 was longer but where the F-7 could be fitted with a steam generator.

-Will Davis

Will,
you arent getting the point!

If there is some Alco manual floating around somewhere that says "Any Alco FA built with a Steam generator will automatically be called a FPA by Alco"
its simply wrong..
it doesnt matter what that manual says..Alco didnt follow their own written spec then..happens all the time.

its a simple fact that the LV never owned any FPA's..
Alco didnt call them FPA's, the LV didnt call them FPA's, there has never been a LV roster in existence that called them FPA's..

your "evidence" that all FA's with a steam generator must automatically be FPA's is simply wrong...yes, perhaps that rule was written somewhere..
perhaps it was even written by Alco..

doesnt matter what it says..its still wrong.

Because Alco built FA's for the LV with steam generators that were not called FPA's by Alco..

its just a fact...it has always been known.
the written word doesnt always match reality.
Alco wrote something then didnt follow it exactly..it happens.
and it DID happen..this is not in doubt.

Scot

[Alcoman]

What do we suppose that an FPA-2 is? When you place a steam generator in the ALCO-GE 1600 HP Road Freight-Passenger unit you end up with the FP designation. Saying that the LV had FA-2's with steam generators not FPA-2's is inherently contradictory. This isn't the same thing as, for example, the EMD F-7 and FP-7 where the FP-7 was longer but where the F-7 could be fitted with a steam generator.

-Will Davis

Will,
you arent getting the point!

If there is some Alco manual floating around somewhere that says "Any Alco FA built with a Steam generator will automatically be called a FPA by Alco"
its simply wrong..
it doesnt matter what that manual says..Alco didnt follow their own written spec then..happens all the time.

its a simple fact that the LV never owned any FPA's..
Alco didnt call them FPA's, the LV didnt call them FPA's, there has never been a LV roster in existence that called them FPA's..

your "evidence" that all FA's with a steam generator must automatically be FPA's is simply wrong...yes, perhaps that rule was written somewhere..
perhaps it was even written by Alco..

doesnt matter what it says..its still wrong.

Because Alco built FA's for the LV with steam generators that were not called FPA's by Alco..

its just a fact...it has always been known.
the written word doesnt always match reality.
Alco wrote something then didnt follow it exactly..it happens.
and it DID happen..this is not in doubt.

Scot

Scot,
Where do you get these"facts" from?????
Alco DID call FA-2's with s/g FPA2's. Do you know more than the builder?
What makes you think Alco did not follow their own spec number system?
Show us some proof?
I guess both EMD and GE are wrong too? You know more than they do too?
Maybe the railroad did not follow that system, but Alco did.
What do you call a FA-2 with a 251 engine in it instead of the 244?
Most railroad people call it a FA2u.
It just bugs the heck out of me when people pretend they know more than the builders!

[scottychaos]

Here is another fun anomaly concerning the "P" designation..
Erie Lackawanna has SDP45's with NO steam generators!
They were built with the SDP45 frame, longer than a standard SD45, which allowed a larger higher capacity fuel tank..EL ordered them for the fuel capacity only..they didnt want or get steam generators with them, they were never used in passenger service, but yet they were still called SDP45's..

Getting back to the Alcos..
clearly there must be more to the FPA designation than a steam generator alone..
To be a "real" FPA you probably needed not only a steam generator but also other passenger-specific traits..different gearing being high on the list.

So perhaps all "real" Alco FPA's were actually built to be passenger units, and had all the standard passenger unit characteristics..

The LV didnt want their FA's to be passenger units primarily..
They were mainly intended as freight units..but they wanted "dual purpose" units that could be used, rarely if needed, as backup passenger units..they probably had freight gearing.

The LV said to Alco "build us a few standard FA's..and throw a steam generator in as well"...but the steam generator alone wasnt enough to earn the units the FPA badge.. they were "Freight FA-2's with a steam generator"..

Scot

[Typewriters]

Electro-Motive's model numbering system is irrelevant. Different companies make or don't make delineations at any time based on internal decisions. For example, the NYC F-3 units built for dual service which remained F-3 units per EMD but which were boiler equipped. In fact, the railroad classed them as DCA type units, not DFA type in its own system.

The designation of FPA/FPB versus FA/FB as per the ALCO material is steam generator only. This includes of course piping and water tank, and associated controls and wiring.

In this case we have the ALCO-GE manual at the start of production of the FA-2 series, and a document produced in 1965 bracketing the whole production clearly indicating that units of this general type with steam generator are FP models, A or B.

ALCOMAN, I'm with you - it especially bugs me when a bunch of solid information from not only two well known authors but from two actual sources of manufacturer data can be completely, totally ignored and replaced with "always known."

Finally, I have a Conrail GE engine manual which clearly has a clerical error in the front listing some units as model "U23-7." We all know that this model didn't exist and that this is a clerical error. I am well aware of what nomenclature is, and means, and what clerical errors are and aren't. In this case, it's clear as can be what ALCO-GE intended for the model numbering and AGAIN I say that if the units were never rostered as such by the LV then that was a completely arbitrary decision on their point. The official designation by the builder remained FP if a steam generator was fitted, per the credible information available at the moment.

-Will Davis

[scottychaos]

Scot,
Where do you get these"facts" from?????
Alco DID call FA-2's with s/g FPA2's. Do you know more than the builder?
What makes you think Alco did not follow their own spec number system?
Show us some proof?
I guess both EMD and GE are wrong too? You know more than they do too?
Maybe the railroad did not follow that system, but Alco did.
What do you call a FA-2 with a 251 engine in it instead of the 244?
Most railroad people call it a FA2u.
It just bugs the heck out of me when people pretend they know more than the builders!

my "facts" come from the well-known history of the LV from 1950 to the present day.

here are two specifics:

All time LV diesel roster published in Extra 2200 South, Issue 77, 1982.
compiled by Dan Dover.
Research sources:
J.W. Hulsman
Bert Pennypacker
Richard Jahn
Bob Wilt.

No FPA's on the roster..unless all those historians in 1982 were wrong.

Mike Bednar's book "Lehigh Valley Railroad, the New York Division"
another LV diesel roster in that book, sources:
"Roster information from Author's notes 1960-1976, as well as Extra 2200 south issue 76 and 77, 1982"

again..no FPA's on the roster.

Mike worked for the LV from 1966-1976 and is considered one of the most knowledgeable LV historians ever..Mike never heard of a LV FPA..
because they didnt exist.

yes, I understand any FA with a steam generator SHOULD be called a FPA..
im simply telling you it didnt always happen that way!

it doesnt matter what the official specs say..the offical specs clearly were not followed 100% of the time..

I dont make this stuff up..its been a known fact since 1950 that the LV never had a FPA..

its just a fact..im sorry this fact offends you all so..
you will just have to get over it..
or just go ahead and call the LV units FPA's if it makes you happy..
you will still be wrong, but do what you like..

Scot

[Alcoman]

Here is the proof of the pudding....If you have trouble reading it, click on the link.
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/23 ... 5149ZnelOU][/URL]

[scottychaos]

Here is the proof of the pudding....

sorry..but that proves nothing.
that might be an official Alco notice from 1965..
but thats 15 years after the LV units were built..

A typed notice from 1965 doesnt prove something definitely happened in 1950.

Scot

[Typewriters]

Well, ALCOMAN, I was going to ask you more about that document but I see you more than accomplished what I was after.

Here is the SECOND piece of literature with ALCO or ALCO-GE letterhead or corporate ID that I've seen today to support the designation FP if steam generator is equipped to the units under discussion; one at the start of production and one well after the end. Regardless of Scot's emotional assertions, it appears factually that from the manufacturer's standpoint the case is closed.

If the purchaser chooses to redesignate the units, that is his prerogative. Or the latter-day historian's.

-Will Davis

[scottychaos]

fine..you win.
call them FPA's..you will be wrong, but knock yourself out.

I guess since we must believe what is WRITTEN instead of what is a known historical fact, then Conrail definitely had some GE U23-7 units!
hey..GE wrote it right?
if it came from GE, it must be true...because now we all know written specs can never be wrong..
apparently there is no such thing as a clerical mistake..
man, I sure miss those Conrail U23-7's..

I really dont see why is this is such a big deal..
im simply trying to inform you of a known historic fact..
why you are so offended by this fact is a mystery to me,
but believe what you like.
LV fans have always known the truth..

im done..

thanks,
Scot

[Alcoman]

Your impossible.......If this does not convince you; nothing will!........Here is a list of Alco Specs:

[scottychaos]

Your impossible.......If this does not convince you; nothing will!........Here is a list of Alco Specs:

*sigh*

again..1965.
proves nothing about what did or didnt happen in 1950.

im REALLY done..

thanks,
Scot

[SSW9389]

Missouri Pacific FPA-2s appear to be #361-373, and #387-392. The number block on Wiki List gives 30 roster number positions. The Diesel Shop FA-2 Roster leaves these number groups blank and they are not on the FPA roster. The Missouri Pacific FPB-2s should be #387B-392B. I used the old Sy Reich Railroad magazine roster, the above 19 A units weighed in at about seven tons more than their sister units.

[SSW9389]

I have received several replies about the B&O units.

The A units with steam generators by original numbers are 809, 809A, 811, 811A, 813, 813A, 815, 815A, 817, 817A for a total of 10 units.

The B units with steam generators by original numbers are 809X 811X, 813X, 815X, 817X for a total of 5 units. One source wrote that the booster 817AX had a steam generator which would make six.

I do not have any B&O books to refer to so the above is what has been told to me so far.

Ed