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  • 251 repowered sharks...

  • Discussion of products from the American Locomotive Company. A web site with current Alco 251 information can be found here: Fairbanks-Morse/Alco 251.
Discussion of products from the American Locomotive Company. A web site with current Alco 251 information can be found here: Fairbanks-Morse/Alco 251.

Moderator: Alcoman

 #95511  by Komachi
 
Alcoman,

I remember on the previous incarnation of the forum, you mentioned the PRR Sharks that were repowered by ALCo.. I looked on the Baldwin Diesel Zone and it looks like four were done, a cab unit and three boosters. Was that it, or were there more? It says the units were retired in '65-'66, but when were they scrapped, around that time or a while after? Just currious.

 #95564  by Alcoman
 
There were 2 'A's and 1 'B' done according to the Alco photo I have. I have to dig further to see if any others were done. It is my understanding that no more were done. I am also told that the "transplant" was not succesful because of the Westinghouse electrical gear and cooling system that was used in the Sharks.

Alco had repowered or proposed to repower many locomotives built by other builders. Some of the ones they did has very limited success because of the electrical system and/or cooling system differences.
Alco had proposed to repower FM locomotives on the Long Island RR which turned out to be more costly than just buying a new locomotive because of all the modifications needed. The cooling system was again a major problem.
The LIRR wanted a 2,000 HP locomotive, but because of both electrical and cooling sytem problems, Alco could only propose a 1800 hp locomotive.

Alco also had proposed to repower SP GE U25B's, but that project did not materialize.
Railroads like the L&N did some repowering thier own. One of thier repowerd GE 70 ton switchers rebuilt with a 6-251 is at the Tropicana plant in New Jersey.
I hope this has been helpful.
 #95568  by Komachi
 
Alcoman,

That was very informative. I just double-checked the BDZ (Baldwin Diesel Zone) site and I must have misread the page on the repowered sharks, as it also says it was two A's and a B unit, not two B's and an A as I posted above, that were redone by ALCo. A shame that the Westinghouse electricals weren't the greatest, one would wonder how many sharks (or other oddball units) and for how long they would have lasted had the rebuild program been more sucessful.

Anyway, thanks for the info, Alcoman. Much appreciated.

BTW, here's the link for the BDZ page on the PRR 251 Sharks...
http://yardlimit.railfan.net/baldwindie ... /9632.html

 #95593  by Richard Glueck
 
Alco had proposed to repower FM locomotives on the Long Island RR which turned out to be more costly than just buying a new locomotive because of all the modifications needed. The cooling system was again a major problem.
The LIRR wanted a 2,000 HP locomotive, but because of both electrical and cooling sytem problems, Alco could only propose a 1800 hp locomotive.

Wow! First I ever heard of this! I knew Jack Brannon, Chief Mechanical Officier of the LIRR, and his dislike for FM' s was thorough. The C-Liners were also notorious switch-pickers, with their B-C truck arrangement. Could you enlighten me a bit more about this quote and what other information you have on it? The FM's were cut up in 1964-65, replaced by ALCO C-420's. Electrical requirements for HVAC came in 1971, with arrival of the rebuilt FA power cars. Am I mixing apples with pears here?
Also, do you have anymore information on what ALCO did with the C-Liners that were traded in, specifically disposition records?

 #95653  by Alcoman
 
If I could put my hands on it, I could give you details, but I have a copy of a letter sent to the LIRR detailing the modifications needed to be made to the FM's.
I believe some componets from the FM's were used as trade in material. I am not sure who did the actual scrapping of the FM's, but the engines were sold for marine use.
The first group of C420's used many rebuilt items instead of new to hold the cost down. This was common practice with ALCO on any locomotive order to help make the price more competitive.

 #95822  by mp15ac
 
I have found it interesting all the problems Westinghouse's electrical gear caused Baldwin and FM. Not the traction motors. Those were virtually indestructable, although they were a bear to replace. It was the generators, espically in 2000-2400 hp locomotives. They were notorious for flashovers, especially when going over diamonds or frogs. The slightest jarring would set them off.

Stuart

 #95934  by Typewriters
 
From what I've been able to learn over the years, there were only severe and intractable problems with Westinghouse main generators in the Fairbanks-Morse CPA-24-5 locomotives, which were variously models 498A, 498B and 498BZ, and mostly on the NYC. The same generator used in the 2000 HP units has not been the source of much comment, and the similar 497 in the 1600 HP C-line units the source of none I've found. You also will not find adverse comment about the 472 or 474 generators used in various earlier locomotives rated 1500 to 2000 HP.

The main problem with the application of the 498 in the 2400 HP C-line units was shifting of the field causing flashover during rapid wheelslip transients. This fault was said to have been enabled by Westinghouse having certified the 498 to operate at a higher voltage rating (thus kilowatt rating) for application in the 2400 HP units than it did in the 2000 HP units. Operation of single 2400 HP units hauling 14 to 16 cars is documented on film on the NYC, which itself could constitute enough overload to shift the generator field, and could have been made worse by the action of slip, quick derating and recovery causing a transient that could shift the field and short the commutator. It may also be true that premature wear of the commutator bars was happening as well, perhaps leading to their shorting, due to excessive heat generation. One might think both.

Of course, this same generator was later used by Fairbanks-Morse in the 2400 HP Train Master. In this locomotive, a more sophisticated control system was employed, which included transition (which is not normally found in Westinghouse-equipped locomotives) and multiple steps of field shunt. It also included a protective relay against generator flashover. I've never read of the kind of flashovers occurring in the Train Master which had previously occurred in the New York Central's CPA-24-5 units.

And, finally, regarding Westinghouse equipment, many will tell you that the generators and traction motors as employed in Baldwin locomotives were indestructible. Although the air throttle equipment left something to be desired as a standard fit, the other equipment (to paraphrase John Kirkland's book) was above average in performance.

The repowering of the New York Central's 2000 HP freight and 2400 HP passenger C-liners was not only due to dissatisfaction with the performance of the electrical equipment in the higher powered units, but also reportedly due to the NYC's dissatisfaction with the opposed piston engine specifically -- and one also notes the move on the NYC to correct the wild disparities of the early diesel purchases by re-engining some of everything with EMD engines, including the "Babyface" Baldwin units and the two BLW road switchers (all carrying the early 608SC) and at least one ALCO-GE passenger unit. There were also Fairbanks-Morse Erie-built units that were repowered, and there were others that retained the OP engine but at a reduced power setting to increase longevity. There was a much bigger picture here, a bigger thing going on -- the NYC wanted to chop off the peak of the high-cost-per-mile locomotive mountain it had built. Thus, labeling the repowering of the C-liners as a wholesale condemnation of the electrical equipment and its failing as regards the 498 in the CPA-24-5 is perhaps too generalistic.

Repowering is a constant topic on these forums, but seems in the final analysis to have produced as much mongrelization as it tried to eliminate. Many times, the total incompatibility of subsystems in different brands of locomotives has been mentioned, which is one factor leading to complication in repowering. The PRR Sharks, which led off this string, were, it would seem, a much more thorough rebuilding and repowering, which of course made them much more expensive. New locomotives were a better idea, and that's much of why the phenomenon died out.

-Will Davis

 #96098  by mxdata
 
That's a great posting, Will. Repowering can get into an enormous scope of engineering problems. Changing the type of prime mover used in an installation can lead to torsional compatibility problems between the new engine and retained driven equipment. This can get into all sorts of unusual failures like failure of drive keys on pumps, failures of seals on pumps, fractured quill shafts on roots blowers, broken leaf springs on the old spring pack vibration dampers, and even failed coupling disks if the problem gets bad enough. I recall one repowering where an operator got into ALL these problems, and finally had to do a complete torsional study of the driveline and change rotating masses to detune the system, because the new engine was torsionally active with the retained equipment. In addition, if you try to retain accessories and piping from the previous prime mover, you can run into flow problems, unexpected siphoning problems, and problems getting replacement parts. For example, if you try to keep the previous oil filter tank, and the new prime mover requires filters with a different micron size rating, you might find that nobody manufactures a filter with that rating to fit the old tank. The approach that EMD used in their repowerings, which was basically to clean out virtually all of the competitor's equipment right down to the underframe and use their own auxiliary systems and hood components, was probably rather expensive but it may have saved them a lot of engineering costs and time spent troubleshooting unusual problems.

The component of federal tax law which provided favorable treatment for the trade-in of older locomotives and re-use of certain parts in the manufacture of a new locomotive, led to programs like the EMD L.R.O. (Locomotive Replacement Order) and probably had a significant effect on the market for doing repowerings.

 #96147  by Typewriters
 
Fabulous, mxdata! That's the kind of post that needs to be made more often to get reality back into reality.

That's printable as an article, or encyclopedic entry in and of itself.

-Will Davis
 #96372  by jr
 
According to Hahn's Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial, Volume 4 (Baldwin Cab and Transfer Units), these repowered sharknose units retained their Westinghouse 370 traction motors, and used GE's GT-581 main generator. These components were evidently both highly regarded. Hahn makes no mention of other electrical gear (GE vs. Westinghouse), other than to say their original pneumatic M.U. was replaced with electric, which allowed them to mate with other makes and models.

They were delivered from Alco in December 1959, and the B-unit was retired 5/7/65. The two A-units were retired 7/2/66. So they did not last as long as some of the un-repowered PRR sharks.

JR

 #97099  by Ol' Loco Guy
 
These beasts were essentially re-packaged FPA-4's (with the addition of dynamic braking) above the platform. All the BLW equipment was removed.

I saw the B-unit shell in PA and noted the GE cooling fan right-angle drive
and Alco road-freight style radiator tunnel.

One can only wonder what the PRR people were thinking-as road freight units were out of style in general-and Alcos were out of style on the PRR by 1959.

 #97147  by Alcoman
 
One can only wonder what the PRR people were thinking-as road freight units were out of style in general-and Alcos were out of style on the PRR by 1959.[/quote]


That is not true as the PRR continuued to buy Alcos until 1968 just before the PRR/NYC merger.

 #97478  by Typewriters
 
In a sense, you're both right, of course; Pennsy did continue to buy ALCO locomotives until the end, but since their practice was to include all major manufacturers in each order, this isn't surprising. PRR had, in fact, reduced the number of ALCO units it bought.

In the time following the shift to six-axle units, the following distributions of locomotives were bought:

EMD - 235 units
GE - 60 units
ALCO- 45 units

These totals include both the U33C and C-636 units ordered by the PRR but delivered following the merger. One can quickly see the bottom position is occupied by ALCO. If we alter this to include all "second generation" units, we get the following totals.

EMD - 406 units
GE - 119 units
ALCO - 92 units

This total includes the DL-640 / RS-27 units. Out of a total of 617 units, 92 were ALCOs, or 15%. Following the shift to six axle power, the percentage for ALCo drops to 13%. That's pretty small as far as percentages go, and would seem to indicate PRR's dissatisfaction with ALCO in general, and that it had cut ALCO down to a definitive "third out of three."

So, yes, PRR was still buying ALCOs, but they were more "out of style" than ever in the later years.

-Will Davis

 #97557  by Ol' Loco Guy
 
The words 'out of style' were not my own. That comment was lifted directly from an article written by a former PRR CMO who was right in the thick of things in the late 50's.

One of his observations about Alco (and EMD) concerned the multiplicity of Alco major component designs versus EMD. During the time EMD produced one model diesel engine( the 567 ), Alco had three designs out in the field-the 539, 244 and 251.

The same could be said for control schemes. During the time EMD used battery field control, Alco had split-pole, amplidyne and static control.

Specifically, his point was it appeared to the PRR management that when Alco got into trouble with a component or system, the knee-jerk response was to do a complete re-design vs. EMD's method of incremental improvement.

Obviously, this situation caused many extra headaches for the stores people, but worst of all, it really hit home on the shop floor.

The example given was the machinist or electrician who had spent years building up what we would now call his personal 'knowledge' base on repairing an RS-3. When initially confronted with an RS-11 (which had a different engine and controls), much of that knowledge base went right out the window. So, perhaps that RS-11 (which may have been a 'better' locomotive than the RS-3) appeared to be more problematic because the shop guys were back at the bottom of the learning curve.

Un-planned obsolescence at its worst ?

 #146328  by Centurylover68
 
I saw in a book one of the Pennsy re-powered sharks. One a unit had a gaping hole torn in the nose. Does anyone know something about it? How'd it happen?