The East Broad Top

[Pacobell73]

One of the problems with ressurecting more of the line might be that its narrow gauge. If the state chips in money to restore standard gauge track, there's always the possibility that the line could be used for freight or passenger service in the future. With narrow gauge, that pretty much limits the line to whatever they can haul point-point (not interchange.) If the state can't benefit from it, they might not want to throw in money towards it.

Excellent point. However, parts of the active section are dual gauge. Why not rehab the line as dual gauge? That way, the line is not restricted and the route can expand.

I just cannot image a one-of-a-kind gold mine that is withering away. The points both of you have made are very much valid, but aside from the narrow gauge restriction, all the other reasons couls easily be applied to any heritage railway to stop it from growing. If this was another heritage railway, I wouls understand.

Heck, a portion of the Valley Railway in Essex, CT has been out of service for over 40 years. They just recently dug it all out and the line is open. I know the track needs pul-enty of work, but it is cleared. I will check with the Friends of EBT to see if they having any plans to mirror what Valley does - dig out the track little by little.

[Otto Vondrak]

Ok, now for the dumbest question of the century:
- approx 33 miles of intact narrow gauge mainline
- 5 miles in service
- expansion...hmmm

There is no money or incentive to activate more than what is already there.

Heck, a portion of the Valley Railway in Essex, CT has been out of service for over 40 years. They just recently dug it all out and the line is open.

So what?

[Pacobell73]

Ok, now for the dumbest question of the century:
- approx 33 miles of intact narrow gauge mainline
- 5 miles in service
- expansion...hmmm

There is no money or incentive to activate more than what is already there.

Any my question is why? Is the EBT just not promoted enough?

I am sorry for sounding so ignorant, but I see something like the Durango and Silverton, Cumbres and Toltec, Cripple Creek...I am thinking the attitude in that part of the country is different. They embrace their history more and make their living museums a reality that grows in leaps and bounds. I rarely hear about those RRs having to worry about funds or a lack of incentive to grow.

Ok, I think I just found the glaring difference. Case closed.

[Otto Vondrak]

]Any my question is why? Is the EBT just not promoted enough?

I am sorry for sounding so ignorant, but I see something like the Durango and Silverton, Cumbres and Toltec, Cripple Creek...I am thinking the attitude in that part of the country is different. They embrace their history more and make their living museums a reality that grows in leaps and bounds. I rarely hear about those RRs having to worry about funds or a lack of incentive to grow.

Ok, I think I just found the glaring difference. Case closed.

Case closed? So far, you have neither presented a case, nor have you proved any facts in said case. Care to estimate what it would cost to restore, operate and maintain 33 miles of railroad?

I wasn't aware that the Durango, the C&TS, and the Cripple Creek were flush with cash and considering tripling the amount of track they run... please, fill us in! In the case of EBT, you are suggesting they increase their trackage six-fold.

Let's put it this way, if there was profit in having a longer ride or opening more trackage, the EBT would be doing it. All the marketing in the world won't make a difference, the average tourist won't notice if the line is 5 miles long or 10 or more. Remember that so-called "railfans" only make up about 5% of a tourist railroad's customers.

-otto-

[Pacobell73]

Otto (and all) - I just re-read my last few posts and realize that they are the rants of a rail lunatic My apologies if I have come off as arrogant, ill-willed or simply ignorant.

I wasn't aware that the Durango, the C&TS, and the Cripple Creek were flush with cash and considering tripling the amount of track they run... please, fill us in! In the case of EBT, you are suggesting they increase their trackage six-fold.

The Durango, the C&TS, and the Cripple Creek are not flush with cash, but they are successful and utilizing their entire infrastructure.

All the marketing in the world won't make a difference, the average tourist won't notice if the line is 5 miles long or 10 or more. Remember that so-called "railfans" only make up about 5% of a tourist railroad's customers.

You are right: the average tourist wil not notice if the line is 5 miles long or 10 or more. But it depends on how you present it to the customer. By informing visitors, telling them somrthing along the lines of "The EBT system runs 33 miles; currently only 5 are in service. Our goal is to eventually restore the entire line, and we cannot do it without your help." Then discuss history, it's one-of-a-kind situation (only narrow gauge left in East, all other converted/destroyed); the interest drummed up could grow in leaps and bounds. People often talke pity on things that are "the last of their tribe" or an endangered species.

Let's put it this way, if there was profit in having a longer ride or opening more trackage, the EBT would be doing it.

See, this is where I disagree. The longer the line, the more the EBT can charge. Conway Scenic is a prime example of this. For example, using them as a guide:

"The 11-mile, 55-minute roundtrip EBT Local excursion is ideal for visitors wanting to experience the enjoyment of a "shorter" train ride. Price: Adult: $12, Children: $6"

"The 33 mile, 3-hour roundtrip EBT Deluxe Excursion is ideal for visitors wanting to experience the enjoyment of all that EBT has to offer and ride its system. We will also make a quick stop at the amtrak/Norfolk Southern interchange at mount Union for food ane refreshments in town. Price: Adult: $30, Children: $15"

There is no way it can be said that if there was profit in having a longer ride or opening more trackage, the EBT would be doing it. Yes, more open track means more maintenance to the infrastrcture. That's what volunteers are for. Equiptment? EBT has quiet a lot of their own original rolling stock that needs to be restored. All those circa WWII freight cars rusted to the rails in Mount Union could be restore, re-used etc. Amazing what a state grant can do. I am sure that if additional motive power is needed, sister narrow gauge operations out west would be happy to help their sole surviving brother in the great northweast.

EBT owns the land, so there is no issue there. At least opening more trackage (or at least clearing the way) will prevent the line from further decay. Or allow a speedster to at least keep the trees from choking thr tracks.

See where I am coming from? All this can be done little by little: nothing good comes easy. But having over 85% of the rail line just sitting there rotting away, without even as much a tree or two outside of the current operating zone cut down for over40 years does not make sense.

[tj48]

"All the marketing in the world won't make a difference, the average tourist won't notice if the line is 5 miles long or 10 or more. Remember that so-called "railfans" only make up about 5% of a tourist railroad's customers."

Couldn't agree with you more Otto, I have visited the Strasburg Railroad many times and more than once have heard it referred to as the "choo choo" ride or hear riders complain that the cars should be "air conditioned because its so hot". Even better yet relatives of mine were in the area and when I told to go for a ride on the Straburg they replied "oh you mean the the place with all the smoke". I doubt most tourists care whether the railroad is narrow gauge or standard gauge, steam powered or diesel powered. A ride of 33 miles on a narrow gauge railroad, as a railfan I say great, being a parent there is no way I would bring my kids (or my wife for that matter) on that ride.
To survive I can't help but believe you must cater to the masses, they far outweight the railfan .
Just my 2 cents.

[Pacobell73]

A ride of 33 miles on a narrow gauge railroad, as a railfan I say great, being a parent there is no way I would bring my kids (or my wife for that matter) on that ride.

I am parent of three myself, and my kids wished the Durango and Silverton would not end (I was actually a little beat afterwards)---and that is an all-day event (45 miles and disconnected from the national network). And pricey---$65 per person I believe. Yet they sell out in hoardes. D&G has scenery: Animas River, San Juan Mountains. EBT has the Appalachian Mountains. Plus, Mount Union would most assuredly see a spike in tourism.

The Georgetown Loop is a quckie, mirroring what EBT has, except that Georgetoop is restricted by what little track is left.

To survive I can't help but believe you must cater to the masses, they far outweight the railfan .
Just my 2 cents.

To survive, you should give people options. Cater to the masses = one hour, 10 mile roundtrip. For others, dinner train, all-day excursion, etc.

I do agree that you need to plant a base, have a 'heart" of the operations. That can be what EBT currently has. The Strasburg has it right. They are the template.

And who says EBT has to be just steam? D&G have a diesel or two they use when needed, though we all know the monbey makers are steam.

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durango_an ... e_Railroad. Like EBT, D&G is private and owned by parent company American Heritage Railways (http://americanheritagerailways.com/), who run a total of five very successful tourist operations, whose excursions vary in length and style:

- Smoky Mountains Railroad - 53 miles
- Texas State Railroad - 25 miles
- The Polar Express (seasonally visits other heritage railways, like Thomas)
- The Little Engine That Could (Thomas, anyone?)

Of course, I am just including EBT in this mix for argument's sake, but if done right, EBT could have a bright future. Having EBT owned by another larger company (read: capital) could only help.

I am not saying EBT should only have rides covering the whole system only; I am saying that the expansion should not be stifled because people might not ride. I think to be truly successful, we have to get past the 1-hour 10-mile roundtrip mentality. 30 miles too long? Fine, take the 10 mile quickie.

[GSC]

Who wouldn't want to see EBT running the entire line?

From my own experience in museum/tourist operations, the biggest nut to crack every year is liability insurance. 33 miles of operating railroad, with access to the ROW from everywhere, would make those premiums massive. Pricing the rides to cover the insurance, plus the rest of the overhead, would price it right out of business.

The Friends of the EBT have often bumped heads with the owners and operators of EBT, and the relationship isn't what it should be.

And the economy sure isn't helping right now.

Nice to dream, but reality keeps showing up.

[Pacobell73]

The Friends of the EBT have often bumped heads with the owners and operators of EBT, and the relationship isn't what it should be.

That is very clear. My point exactly. EBT is owned by the wrong people. It either needs to be run by those with the mentality of the Durango and Silverton or a Tom Davis (proprietor of the Station Inn in Cresson, PA) or owned by a larger entity like American Heritage Railways. Not a scrap dealer whose interests are elsewhere and the EBT is an afterthought. With EBT, all that matters in the almight dollar. "Sorry, ridership is down this year. We will have to close up shop. soory that Friends of EBT sweated it out another year."

I know I am preaching to the chior here, but I would think after 50 years, someone with authority would take the owners to court, cite the gold mine wasting away, and take ownership of the one-of-a-kind.

[GSC]

Taking the owners to court and taking their property from them, for any reason, is called eminent domain, and here in NJ, this is ripe with corruption and abuse. Not the best way to do it.

[Pacobell73]

Taking the owners to court and taking their property from them, for any reason, is called eminent domain, and here in NJ, this is ripe with corruption and abuse. Not the best way to do it.

Yup, I was raised in Central NJ in Hightstown. The right of iminent domain was used for everything. However, considering the EBT is a treasured National Historic Landmark, I am sure some kind of case could be made by the Friends of EBT and their difficult working relationship with the owners.

[RussNelson]

Amazing what a state grant can do.

Government money is never free. It always comes with strings attached.

[Otto Vondrak]

The Friends of the EBT have often bumped heads with the owners and operators of EBT, and the relationship isn't what it should be.

That is very clear. My point exactly. EBT is owned by the wrong people.... I know I am preaching to the chior here, but I would think after 50 years, someone with authority would take the owners to court, cite the gold mine wasting away, and take ownership of the one-of-a-kind.

Wow... maybe you're right. The Kovalchiks have had the EBT for sale ever since they bought it in the mid-1950s. Since you have extensive experience in marketing and museum management, you should offer to buy this "gold mine" before someone else beats you to it! I mean, tourist railroads are money making machines! Better yet, get the government involved! I'm sure the Commonwealth of Pennyslvania was waiting for a visionary like you to lead the way...

>rolls eyes<

-otto-

[Pacobell73]

Wow... maybe you're right. The Kovalchiks have had the EBT for sale ever since they bought it in the mid-1950s. Since you have extensive experience in marketing and museum management, you should offer to buy this "gold mine" before someone else beats you to it! I mean, tourist railroads are money making machines! Better yet, get the government involved! I'm sure the Commonwealth of Pennyslvania was waiting for a visionary like you to lead the way..

Ah, that New York cynicism. I get that every time I see my family in Queens, NY. The mouth run-eth over, but 'tis easier to criticize than contribute. I must say - as a "creative director," you have a lot to offer to this conversation. Patronizing comments always help. *stern look*

Please provide some evidence that the Kovalchiks have put the EBT up for sale. Do you have extensive experience in marketing and museum management? I have worked at two, both which are doing quite well. Never once said tourist railroads are "money making machines," but they sure can be if done right. I am saying EBT would be much better off owned by a larger corporation like American Heritage Railways, which---guess what---is a money making machine. Why? Because they know their audience and they know their business.

Just hate seeing good things in the hands the hands of less than appreciative people.

[Otto Vondrak]

The mouth run-eth over, but 'tis easier to criticize than contribute.

Exactly what I was thinking! So far, all I've heard is "EBT should do this" and "EBT should do that" and "The current owners don't know what they are doing." I'm waiting for your plan on what you would do to change all this... I assume you have one?

Patronizing comments always help.

That extra bit of service I offer at no charge.

Please provide some evidence that the Kovalchiks have put the EBT up for sale.

It's been "for sale" ever since they bought it for scrap in 1956. Make them an offer, they'll be glad to sell it for the right price. But it won't be scrap value. And it won't be cheap.

Do you have extensive experience in marketing and museum management?

Lol... why yes, actually, I do. Thanks for asking.

I have worked at two, both which are doing quite well.

Really? I find that hard to believe after your suggestions above. Which two? Just curious.

Never once said tourist railroads are "money making machines," but they sure can be if done right. I am saying EBT would be much better off owned by a larger corporation like American Heritage Railways, which---guess what---is a money making machine. Why? Because they know their audience and they know their business.

So why hasn't American Heritage Railways beat a path to Pennsylvania to purchase this cash cow? Why haven't you? You insist that EBT is capable of "much more" and that the current owners are somehow spiteful people who simply wish to let the railroad whither and die. It sounds like you've given this a lot of thought, so I'll reserve judgment until I see your business plan. I assume you have put together some sort of plan that outlines how you would turnaround the current situation on the EBT? If you have established goals for the EBT, then certainly you have a plan to meet those goals.

-otto-