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  • Are basements becoming a thing of the past?

  • Discussion related to everything about model railroading, from layout design and planning, to reviews of related model tools and equipment. Discussion includes O, S, HO, N and Z, as well as narrow gauge topics. Also includes discussion of traditional "toy train" and "collector" topics such as Lionel, American Flyer, Marx, and others. Also includes discussion of outdoor garden railways and live steamers.
Discussion related to everything about model railroading, from layout design and planning, to reviews of related model tools and equipment. Discussion includes O, S, HO, N and Z, as well as narrow gauge topics. Also includes discussion of traditional "toy train" and "collector" topics such as Lionel, American Flyer, Marx, and others. Also includes discussion of outdoor garden railways and live steamers.

Moderators: 3rdrail, stilson4283, Otto Vondrak

 #64746  by snowplough
 
From what I've seen in my area, new homes are hardly ever built with a basement any more, at least as far as new subdivisions go. I'm not sure how long the lack of a basement has been the rule rather than the exception, but I'd guess its been going on for at least 20 years or so. It's all part of a general cheapening of home construction.

What does this mean for the hobby? Will hobbyists one day have to have new homes specially built, or will they make do without a basement? Will this force more hobbyists to tinker with the idea of hideaway layouts (e.g., layouts that lower from the garage ceiling, etc.)?

I'm aware that in some parts of the country modelers (e.g. Florida) have already had to deal with a lack of basements. Are the layouts in those areas forced to be smaller? Is the concentration of N-scalers higher in basementless areas?


snowplough
 #64752  by Tom Curtin
 
I see you're writing from Ohio ---- what are they doing there, building houses on slabs?

In Connecticut, where I live (basically the same latitude as Ohio), standard single family homes just about always have basements. Condos will often get away with a crawl space, but you see slabs only occasionally.

 #64763  by snowplough
 
Yes, most new homes seem to built on slabs. As I said, there's been a general cheapening of home construction around here. In my hometown, things have gotten so bad that the city council had to call for a temporary moratorium on new home construction until some standards could be set.

I'm glad to hear that's not a problem in Connecticut. Hopefully the age of slab-foundation homes will soon pass.


snowplough
 #64772  by Paul Cutler III
 
I live in Massachusetts, and every new house I've ever seen go up has had a basement. I think it has something to do with the freezing ground, and the fact that you can't have a house sitting above the frost line. In this area, IIRC, the frost line can be 30"-36" deep if it's a wicked cold winter. If you have to dig deep enough for that, one might as well go down a couple more feet and pour a floor.

The funny thing is, I thought OH got just as cold as New England...

 #64794  by mlrr
 
I've learned that in places like VA and FL, houses can't have basements. I think the reason for that is thier elevation. Those states are primarily below sea level.

I have a friend who was going to move FL until he found out that houses don't have basements down there. As a result he changed his plans and is now looking for a place elsewhere. As a model railroader, I can't blame him, lol. :-D

If I couldn't use a basement I'd have to have an extra story built just for my trains, like an attic that uses as much space as possible.

 #64803  by scopelliti
 
Said another way, the issue of whether to build a basement, crawl space, or slab is often dependent upon where the water table is located. In some places, such as Florida, if you dig a hole it quickly fills with water. Not much you can do there besides build on a slab.

The other issue, of course, is cost. A slab is cheaper to build than a full basement.
 #64851  by Tom Curtin
 
Herewith a civil engineering lesson which will help clear this question up.

1. In northerly latitudes (such as Ohio, or anywhere there's frost), there is nothing to prevent building a slab house as long as the perimeter foundation wall extends below the defined frost line in the area. To excavate an exterior wall as far as required and then put in a slab is probably the lowest-cost construction. However, any local code may elect to be more stringent and require a basement, or at least a crawl space anyway.

2. Slab houses are almost universal in the "sun belt" because frost is nonexistent and therefore not an issue.

3. In coastal areas --- Virginia, presumably the tidewater part, was cited above as an example --- you may not be able to put in a basement. The reason isn't the "water table" per se, but rather what "flood zone" your property is in. The Army Corps of Engineers has oversight over defining flood zones. Example: if they have declared your property an "A-11" flood zone this means you may not excavate any livable area below 11 feet "NGVD.*" l.ocations near the ocean in places like Long Island or Cape Cod have this issue. You could conceivably go a lifetime and never have a flood, but officially anything below the specified elevation is a "flood zone."

4. If neither item #2 or #3 applies, then I agree, the builder is being cheap.

___________________
* "NGVD" is "national geodetic vertical datum," the reckoning point from which surveyors determine elevations above sea level.

 #64855  by Baked_Beans
 
Dont move to australia then , because theres no basement , no attic and rarely a slab :)

 #64890  by dti406
 
I live in Northeast Ohio and most single family homes have basements or the option at about 6-10 thousand to add a basement to the house.

A lot of cluster homes, townhomes and condo's do not have basements in order to keep the costs down for first time home builders. But you can find these in the above if you search, but you will pay extra for them.

When I was looking at clusters etc, I could tell by the price if they had a basement or not, see 180,000 versus 150,000 for the same house style.\

Rick
 #65743  by jmp883
 
I live in basement heaven (northern NJ) in a house built in the early 1950's and all I have is a crawl space under the house and no attic. Yet all the other houses in the area have at least one, if not both, of these coveted rooms. I converted to N-scale because of this and the layout occupies a spare room. Actually, moving to N was a good deal, even when I get a more layout-friendly house I still plan to stay in N.

Joe P :-D
Long Live The EL
www.geocities.com/jmpwpd29

 #66660  by CIOR
 
I find that it all depends on the actual locations.
It does little use to build a basement in a location that is known to have a high water table, as it will more times then not, flood!
The location where my home is built, is very gravel/stone laiden. You can not dig more then about 2' until you hit almost solid stone fill.
If I drive about 3 miles down the road, no one has a basement, if they do, theirs floods. This is because the land is not very "draining" and it is a higher clay pack. They do however live nearly 50+ feet higher in elevation then us!

Here is this part of Indiana, basements are more common (Tornado Country) and most home builders find residents more willing to pay an additional $15,000 to 30,000 for one (even if it floods!)

I see your from Middletown, being that close to Xenia, I would figure people would have seen what an F5 can do! I live about 1/4mile from where another F5 hit, you don't have to tell me twice.


I also have noticed that the construction of the 50's-60's has returned in the form of subdivision mass construction. That in itself is a hole different ball game!

 #71695  by EL PARRo
 
I live in California, and here we have virtually no basements, not because houses are cheap, but because we have no need for basements. I store my layout in a fully enclosed patio.

 #72325  by thrdkilr
 
Who says we don't have basements in Florida? There called 3 car garages though....

P.S. It origianally was due to high water tables (I hit water with a fence hole digger at 2 feet), cost is now a facter, and I'm not sure if termites come into play We've got them real bad!
 #72816  by Tom Curtin
 
A spare garage bay may well work for you in Florida; however, it has definite limitations. Garages are generally not climate-controlled these days (Back in the 50s, in the long lost era of cheap energy there was a spate of construction here in the northeast of heated-garage homes, but this is, as I said, long-lost!). In Florida this means no A/C. And in places that are, technically, often considered "sun belt" you have enough of a change of season that winters get amply cold enough to require heat! Northern Arizona is a good example of that. The fellow from Ohio who started this thread would unquestionably need heat!!