Horizon Hobby Buys MDC-Roundhouse...

[pdt]

Thanks for the tip about the 60 footers!
Trying to find one to do a model of a US Army Tank being transported.

I think that Horizon is positioning themselves to compete with Walthers. I see they sell alot more than just Athearn and MDC. Competition is good.
Maybe the Horizon catalog will be cheaper than Walthers or even free.

Maybe they will increase production of older products, like ehem, 60ft non bulkhead flat cars :o)

You might want to check out Intermountain's 60-foot flat car. They are exquisite. They represent a different prototype, so a little variety can't hurt. Besides, you can't have just one, can you? :D

[JDFX]

Horizon competing with Walthers? Perhaps.

I know I bitched up a storm months ago when Horizon took over Athearn, and although I am still a slight bit skeptical, Athearn hasn't disappeared.

I just don't trust Horizon and what might be its motives. At this point, nothing bad has happened, the sky hasn't fallen, large tidal waves didn't strike east coast, and there wasn't a nuclear cloud over New York City, so perhaps Horizon's intentions are good ones.

I do fear two things though..

1.) The level of Quality Control maintains the same as it is today.

2.) These two companies (Walthers and Horizon) decide to increase prices to the point where I cannot afford the hobby.

I know the second one has been answered with "Items will only fetch what the market will bear" however, there is this craze now of "Pre-Ordering" before manufacturing.

As for the Q.C., Horizon's history in RC and Display Models has been up and down. Some years, they were on the ball, others, well, people would equate it to junk.

I would hate to see Athearn or MDC go to a low level of Q.C. in 10 years.

Guess we'll wait and see,

[pdt]

snip

I do fear two things though..

1.) The level of Quality Control maintains the same as it is today.

2.) These two companies (Walthers and Horizon) decide to increase prices to the point where I cannot afford the hobby.

I know the second one has been answered with "Items will only fetch what the market will bear" however, there is this craze now of "Pre-Ordering" before manufacturing.

As for the Q.C., Horizon's history in RC and Display Models has been up and down. Some years, they were on the ball, others, well, people would equate it to junk.

I would hate to see Athearn or MDC go to a low level of Q.C. in 10 years.

Guess we'll wait and see,

Well, there's good news as far as your last comment concerns MDC: It can't get much worse. I have been purchasing MDC products for no less than 15 years, and some of those items were well used before I got them. Still others sat on shelves for years (my Ortners come to mind - they had been out of production for a few years before I bought the last 20 PF&S had) prior to me buying them. There is a clear decline in the quality of printing, the quality of the castings ejected from the molds, and the fit of the parts. There is an increase of incorrect or missing parts (screws the wrong size, tank car manways missing, brake fittings missing, etc.) and parts often come out warped or broken (I have a ton of their tank cars, which are probably more sensitive to defects than any other type of car). In my limited experience, the kits I bought ten-fifteen years ago didn't have these problems at all or were very infrequent. My last dozen tank cars included 3 that can't be assembled due to improper fit and missing parts. Three out of four ain't great.

So, I'd think it would be a pretty serious lapse on the Geddes team to allow qc to remain the same with the MDC line but by the same token, I'd be impressed to see the Athearn line carry on at the level they currently deliver. Have a look at the current SD70MAC photos or any of the Genny Fs if you need proof.

As to your comment on Horizon's history with quality control, they are doing at least one thing right: Geddes is in charge of both Athearn and MDC. It was on his watch all the post-Mr. Athearn good has been done. I expect he'll keep a close watch on things to come.

As far as the pre-ordering business is concerned, it affects me already. I've tried to buy a pair of Atlas (and they are the biggest proponents of this practice) B40-8Ws in Santa Fe through the local sources and even had an order placed with Hobby Circle (apparently it's a good thing they were already sold out and didn't take my money) at the beginning of delivery of the second run, only to have missed out on both runs. So, I end up with the scraps usually. Which means I end up doing my shopping on ebay for most of the newer items I can't get at the LHS. Ebay is where you'll find the truest example of what the market will bear. The MSRP marked on many of the models I buy is far more than I pay for them, unless it's a particular OOP model that I doubt I'll find again (but that's only freight cars). So, while I still have maybe 300 to 400 bucks to spend per year on my hobby, I can still participate. One thing's for sure, anyway: it's quality, not quantity, that counts for me now more than ever.

In the end, I share your fears. I'm more of a half-empty, pragmatic kind of guy than most people I know. But, unlike the Horizon-Athearn deal, this one seems pretty hard to screw up.

Here's to hoping for the best (as I raise my half empty glass)

[jwb1323]

I'd say that in a nutshell, what seems to be happening is that new money is coming into the model railroad hobby. Look at Broadway Limited for a startup, and now a big player in hobbies generally coming in and making investment where it's needed. Note new facility for Athearn, now buying MDC -- I agree it couldn't have gotten much worse. And note Athearn/Horizon has enough bucks to pay a lawyer to stand up to UP. A long-time hobby buddy works there, and I hope he comes out of it OK, but he's in an occupation where he shouldn't have trouble finding other work if he has to.

Will other shoes drop? What would happen if deep pockets decided to take MR off Kalmbach's hands -- or, a very similar situation to my mind, someone like Horizon sees Colonel Carstens, who must be about 85, as a potential seller of the business as Clarence Menteer of MDC was. This can only help, it seems to me. Schaumburg needs to take up wine tasting full-time, as I see it. The whole hobby mag area is where we need a similar shakeup, better product, better quality, more innovation.

[pdt]

I'd say that in a nutshell, what seems to be happening is that new money is coming into the model railroad hobby.

Correct. Now why is it new money is coming into the hobby? Well, because there's money to be made. The manufacturers are rushing to get out RTR stuff because it makes loads of money. The tooling has been paid for, plastic is still basically cheap, shipping to and from Asia is cheap and most important, Asian labor is still cheap. So, place a nicely painted fully assembled model in a blister pack and mark it $12.99. The same kit might have sold for five bucks in a box, but most likely it continues to sit on a shelf.

Look at Broadway Limited for a startup, and now a big player in hobbies generally coming in and making investment where it's needed. Note new facility for Athearn, now buying MDC -- I agree it couldn't have gotten much worse. And note Athearn/Horizon has enough bucks to pay a lawyer to stand up to UP. A long-time hobby buddy works there, and I hope he comes out of it OK, but he's in an occupation where he shouldn't have trouble finding other work if he has to.

BLI is basically selling a DCC/sound equipped version of what Franklin Mint might have sold ten years ago. The similarity between FM and BLI is the collector is their target customer. The difference is many of their models are credible enough to be taken seriously by even the pickiest of prototype modelers (their E unit and SD40-2 notwithstanding). I applaud their ambition and their successes and hope their failures teach them what not to do.

Will other shoes drop? What would happen if deep pockets decided to take MR off Kalmbach's hands -- or, a very similar situation to my mind, someone like Horizon sees Colonel Carstens, who must be about 85, as a potential seller of the business as Clarence Menteer of MDC was. This can only help, it seems to me. Schaumburg needs to take up wine tasting full-time, as I see it. The whole hobby mag area is where we need a similar shakeup, better product, better quality, more innovation.

I'm not familiar enough with the magazine industry to even venture a guess as to what will happen, but I think all printed media is dealing with providing content that's competetive with web-based media. I'll only purchase a magazine if there's an article inside that really spurs my interest, and admittedly, that's rare. So, already I'm out of their market. If some kind of shakeup occurs as you suggest is needed, I'm not sure it would get me subscribing again.

[jwb1323]

I'll agree with R.C.Harris's good points, but take the business of Athearn RTR one step farther. You're absolutely right that there's duplication between a small number of recent Athearn blue-box items and the RTR line (like some of the heavyweight cars, exactly the same in kit and RTR, and probably yes, the kits stay on the shelf while the twice as expensive RTR go out the door in a flash). But most of the RTR isn't duplicated in blue box.

Take the GP38-2s. I got a Katy version RTR, fit, finish and handrails far better than blue box. Admittedly it was a trial balloon for me -- turns out the mechanism and lights are standard blue-box, not like the better quality on the SD50 or CF7 -- but the paint and assembly were so much better that it was worth it. MKT doesn't come in blue box, and paint probably wouldn't be as well done.

A lot of the rest of the RTR line shows a lot of imagination -- now they're doing the tried and true 40 foot AAR boxcar as express boxes in new paint schemes. Athearn did a few of these in the "SE" line in years past, but nobody thought to sell a whole new bunch of these with this new idea. So it's not JUST a quality improvement. They're finding new uses for the equipment.

When you think most of the magazine editors have been on their jobs 20+ years, I think a little imagination and fresh viewpoint would do the same -- I've stopped buying all mags but RMC, and then not always. But what if MR suddenly turned into another Athearn RTR in terms of rethinking same old-same old???

[JDFX]

For me personally, I'd rather buy a kit, than ready to run if I can, as I truely do enjoy building the models, and making them "bulletproof" to my liking.

Plus they're cheap and affordable.

As for locos, I try and buy undecs only because its rare that anyone paints anything Erie-Lackawanna or CNJ, or L&HR. (although the trend is starting to change)

In terms of the magazine, although off topic, briefly, would anyone oppose "Railroad Explorer" from buying RMC?

I feel "R-E" puts out a good magazine, and it seems they are getting better with age, granted, "R-E" isn't a monthly, and RMC is, but what the hell, right? I think the folks at "R-E" are more than capable of putting out a monthly.

[jwb1323]

I would certainly buy kits, but with the exceptions noted above, blue box doesn't have the really good new paint schemes and great execution that you have with RTR. I always have to disassemble the RTR stuff to apply screw-mounted coupler boxes with Kadees, add detail to the underframes, and made whatever other changes are appropriate to my own layout standards (like painted and weathered underframes). So kits for these items would be great. However, I think the painting operation in China is separate from the one in California (the new facility has paint booths as well, so it seems they will continue to do the blue boxes the same old way).

[pdt]

jwb hit the nail on the head with the RTR paint schemes. Simple as that, the painting is miles ahead of the old blue box stuff. Years ago, just about any road's scheme was fair game for applying to any model, whether the real thing had that type of car (or even a similar type) or not. In recent years, prototypical accuracy has been given more attention, so you're less likely to see a scheme only worn on say, an ACF hopper applied to a PS hopper model. And, with advances in painting technology, the crispness, color matching and positioning of markings is much better than what you'll find on old stock blue boxes.

I would suspect jwb is correct about where the newer models are painted. Ever read the warnings on just about any flammable or petrol product on the market? "... known to the State of California to cause [disease/ailment du jour]..." Painting anything is probably not an inexpensive enterprise in SoCal these days.

[graftonterminalrr]

I think someone mentioned earlier that after the Horizon Hobbies takeover of Athearn, the prices would go up and availibility would decrease, etc, etc. And then someone mentions that it's been a few months and the sky hasn't fallen so far. Now that may be true for you people blessed with a LHS but since I made the move from Halifax a few short months ago, i am relegated to EBay and online ordeing for most of my hobby materials.

Have you been to any auctions featuring Athearn equipment lately? Aside from the most overused term on EBay ("Rare") the people selling Athearn equipment almost invariably incude something to the gist of "These are hard to find now what with the recent Athearn slowdown of production" or the like. I mean, an undecorated GP7 widebody, for 50 bucks US? No, I don't think so.

On another note, SD45Jim, have you been on recently? I still would like to know if I can get a power chassis or 2 from your GPs.

[jwb1323]

OK, but in light of the improvement in RTR, why would you want to buy a blue box wide body at any price? I can sympathize with living in a rural area and not having swap meets every few weeks where you can pick up old body shells for modeling things like a rail scrap yard -- but when you think you can get an Atharn RTR GP38-2 in the US$60 range at discount, from a reputable dealer, with a warranty, with the really excellent new paint schemes available in RTR, now, why would you want to try to get a blue box wide body? If you've GOTTA have an older GP, it's still possible to scrounge Atlas units from the last couple of runs, though not quite as inexpensively (but still in the US$80-90 range).

And frankly, there's no comparison between the Atharn RTR items coming out now and the equivalent blue box items (where these existed). You may need to change shopping patterns, try a different dealer, but there is some really excellent stuff out there. eBay can certainly be a ripoff for many, many categories of merchandise, and this may be the case in the instances you're referring to.

I guess there will always be people who'll regret that Chevy stopped making the Corvair!

[tocfan]

I got this email and after a good laugh, thought it might be good reading for everyone here.

Mike

Subject: Re: Horizon Hobby, Inc. Acquires...
>
> Breaking News from Model Railroader Magazine
>
> Horizon Hobby purchases Union Pacific Corporation
> Union Pacific Corporation, LLC joins Horizon.
>
> On June 15, 2004, Horizon Hobby, Inc., announced that it purchased Union
> Pacific Corporation, including operating subsidiary Union Pacific
Railroad.
> Union Pacific Corporation is an Omaha, NB based provider of integrated
rail
> transportation. The firm's corporate operations will be moved to Carson,
> Calif., home of Athearn Inc. and Model Die Casting, Inc.; Union Pacific
> Railroads operating department will continue to be based in Omaha. Tim
> Geddes, Ahearn's president, will oversee the operations of both actual and
> model railroad-related product lines.
>
> Geddes is quoted as saying that: "the merger of Horizon's model trains
> with the leading full-size counterpart will, for the first time ever,
bring
> true integration of both prototype and model rail transportation systems."
>
> Notwithstanding the current trademark lawsuit between Athearn, and Union
> Pacific, Geddes also stated it was "Simply easier and cheaper to buy
Union
> Pacific than to continue with costly trademark litigation. Horizon will
now
> control the use of all modern and historic logos from Union Pacific and
> constituent railroads, including logos that are not pictured on the Union
> Pacific Web Site."
>
> In addition, Geddes stated that "commensurate with the high value of the
> trademarks, only Horizon's model train product lines will have use of
Union
> Pacific and constituent railroad logos." Horizon will not be offering
> licenses on Union Pacific's trademarks as well as trademarks of
predecessor
> railroads to the model railroad manufacturing community and that current
> licensing agreements with all model railroad manufactures would be
> suspended.
>

[graftonterminalrr]

OK, but in light of the improvement in RTR, why would you want to buy a blue box wide body at any price? I can sympathize with living in a rural area... but when you think you can get an Atharn RTR GP38-2 in the US$60 range at discount... with the really excellent new paint schemes available in RTR, now, why would you want to try to get a blue box wide body?

I agree with you. What I was mentioning was one of about 4 cases I've seen so far where someone has pushed the bidding of an undec Athearn GP7 past the 50 dollar range. This, while maybe helping the "collector" market in some weird case, does not apply to me... for the same money I could and do buy a Proto 2000 unit with it's far advanced detail (compared to Athearn), correct width and exquisite paint jobs. I also have some of the Athearn SE releases (while being "blue-box" they have near-RTR quality paint jobs.... but that's to be expected as SE came out before RTR and the SE line has been dropped) and I am happy with them.

"If you've GOTTA have an older GP, it's still possible to scrounge Atlas units from the last couple of runs..."

Yes, I agree with you there. Atlas units are nice, though a wee bit pricey even on Ebay. As stated before I purchase the Proto-2000 line because on Ebay these have deep discounts (I find) and I can get pretty much any release. I've bought everything from their early Geep line (GP7, GP9 {all 3 phases no less}, GP18, {haven't got a GP20 yet}), their FAs, their GP30 (which is exquisite and I love it), and a few original 89 release BL2's (still one of the most unique diesels ever built). Each unit I've picked up ran me no more that 35 dollars on Ebay, and some (the BL2s come to mind) cost me 15. Yes, some of them are used. No, I don't care. I'd rather have these and be happy than be gouged by so called "collectors" for far inferior Athearn (and now some MDC) products.

That being said, of course there is a place for this stuff... most of my freight car fleet is Athearn, for the simple reason that it looks and performs well, and it was cheap. Hey, I have no problems..... but the thing is that with an Athearn boxcar and an Accurail boxcar and a Branchline Trains boxcar all hitting the same price, guess where I'm gonna be going? Now most of us started on Athearn equipment and like I said before it still has its place, but with the so called "collectors" driving the prices up on this type of equipment, where will little Jimmy down the road get his start? Model Power, Bachmann ( the non Spectrum junk line)? Probably... and if anything it will drive him out of the hobby with the
bad operating characterisics, wheels that pop out of the truck, chintzy build quality and no weight to speak of in the rolling stock. (I was going to say "bad-operating locos", but Bachmann's "crappy train set" line has drastically improved their drives over what they used to be, and Model Power's surprisingly are not too bad... although body dimensions especially on their F2 leave a lot to be desired)

[jwb1323]

I think Grafton Terminal's remarks are well-expressed and completely correct. On one area, though, I would say that the problem of entry-level low quality has always been with us. In the 1960s we had Tyco, AHM, Life-Like, and Bachmann almost like we do now, and they ran no better than they do now. I don't think there was ever a "golden age" where the teenage entry-level hobbyist could get cheap equipment that ran well. In the late 1950s there was a company called International Models that imported Japanese brass that was very cheap (but also very low quality). I got my start in HO because their office was near where my father worked in New York, and he dropped by and picked up some of the items for birthday and Christmas presents. They ran barely or not at all -- but then, I think my first Athearn was an SD45 (close to $20 at the time, I think -- my parents had a fit), and THAT ran very poorly. Wheels out of gauge (I didn't know it at the time), brass wheels that got very dirty fast, poor motor, no flywheels. That, recognize, was an expensive model. I think the AHM U25C was a little cheaper, but not much better, especially with the deep flanges, and replacing the couplers was past a teenager's skill level.

The ideal solution, then and now, would be for the social side of the hobby to allow older modelers with some of the necessary skills and experience to mentor younger ones. Alternatively, the mags could profitably take up the question of how to choose and renovate second-hand models -- but ideally, clubs, Scout programs, and other groups (church, maybe) could profitably take this tack. At least, it seems to me.

But the higher-end models that ran well (other than PFM about 1960, which appears to have focused on providing a quality product that ran as well as models at the time could run) didn't exist 45 years ago. That is one of the big improvements in the hobby. But there was never any such thing as a "cheap" model in reach of a teenager on a normal allowance that ran well.